Fingering advice

WieWaldi

(E♭ Major, all LH)

I think, bar 1 is quite straightforward (51515151). The rest has some long scale runs. Initally I wanted to stick to the standard fingering of the E♭ scale. But playing it, some fingers were not free or in an awkward position, because of the previous notes. So I went with a fingering that is different to the standard scale fingering in some places.

Now I am curious:
How would you do the fingering?

twocats

WieWaldi not in front of a piano so guessing what I'd try, but see if you like this:

Bar 2: 2123145
Bar 3: (3|4)2123212
Bar 4: 31234123

Between bar 2 and 3 make sure you use wrist rotation.

Jane

If you do facebook, this is a group where a lot of people discuss fingering questions: https://www.facebook.com/groups/243421769180517/

WieWaldi

twocats Thank you. I think I tried something similar, (bold=difference)

Bar 2: 2123145
Bar 3: 42121212 // the 4 of (3|4) feels better in front of a keyboard
Bar 4: 31234123

but dropped it (maybe for something worse). It was the most economic fingering, but then too different compared to the scale fingering and I went for something else.

iternabe

WieWaldi

iternabe Yes, this is what is currently my fav. (didn't want to spoiler it in first post)

Jump from bar 2 to 3, but because it is a quarter note, it feels relaxed enough

twocats

WieWaldi that makes sense too! Basically we came up with the same thing 🙂

twocats

WieWaldi wait you dropped it? It's definitely worth being flexible and not adhering strictly to scale fingering where it doesn't make sense! You learn those fingers so that you can apply them when there's a long scale, but don't try to fit a square peg in a round hole!!

twocats

WieWaldi Jump from bar 2 to 3, but because it is a quarter note, it feels relaxed enough

Ahhhhhh ok, I didn't notice it was a quarter note there. I think it's ok unless it calls for legato phrasing.

WieWaldi

twocats Yes, dropped it.
What you are saying was the big question in my head:

Use as much as possible from the standard scale fingering (if still good enough).
Or go for the best economic fingering but have the need to learn more muscle memory.

I was going forth and back for some time, but the other option started to feel familiar earlier. Now I want to learn for the future, what option is generally the better one. I don't think I will change now again, but I am curious what others would have done.

The more opinions here in the forum, the better.

WieWaldi

twocats Yes - legato is what I prefer sound wise. But the right hand is doing some stuff as well and maybe I can cheat a bit with the pedal. Even the jump sounded good enough for my ears and at my beginner level, so I ignored that problem.

twocats

WieWaldi Or go for the best economic fingering but have the need to learn more muscle memory.

My opinion is always this! It's also a good brain exercise to figure out good fingerings that work for your own hands. And sometimes it's a work in progress to realize that something isn't working and you should change it. I am literally changing fingerings in my Bach a year later. It's initially very hard but after a week or two, it sinks in 🙂

WieWaldi

twocats My opinion is always this! It's also a good brain exercise to figure out good fingerings that work for your own hands.

Good to know. This is what I did in the past all the time. But it cost me always a lot of time to learn. So I thought, let's try the other option. Unfortunately, it costs a lot of learning-time as well. 😅
The scale fingering was earlier comfortable especially when I tried to add the right hand. It felt earlier as auto-pilot.

Another reason was: What if a good sight reader would play this, would he go instantly for the standard scale approach but be good enough to do the jump on the fly. Or maybe an advanced pianists can play everything nice even with a suboptimal fingering. On the other hand, an advanced pianist has more muscle memory patterns already built up and is able to pull those off. Then my mind came back to the sight-reader...

You see, the questions in my head were running circles

twocats

WieWaldi But it cost me always a lot of time to learn.

Fingerings are a big overhead in the initial process, but so worth it to figure out good ones!!

WieWaldi Another reason was: What if a good sight reader would play this, would he go instantly for the standard scale approach but be good enough to do the jump on the fly. Or maybe an advanced pianists can play everything nice even with a suboptimal fingering. On the other hand, an advanced pianist has more muscle memory patterns already built up and is able to pull those off. Then my mind came back to the sight-reader...

Honestly it's probably a mix? Some of the stuff I see what's coming next so I accomodate, and some I'm doing super awkward things and tripping over my fingers. Maybe I can make it sound good but it's terribly awkward to play (like ending up with thumbs on black keys when I don't need to).

When I'm learning a new piece, as I'm going along I'm writing in fingerings or rewriting them if they exist and I disagree with the editing. And sometimes as I pick up the tempo I realize why they wrote it that way! Or sometimes my own fingerings are better for my small hands.

I think if you're going to continue to learn and grow as a pianist, finding good fingerings is so critical. And it's worth figuring it out early when learning a new piece so that you don't commit your muscle memory to something awkward and have to relearn later 🙂

WieWaldi

twocats And sometimes as I pick up the tempo I realize why they wrote it that way!

Good point. This happend to me as well. I always do my fingering tryouts one handed, so I get faster, sooner. But sometimes I even think it makes sense to synchronize the fingerings of both hands.
You may ask you I mean with synchronize?
Well (glad you asked) - in some cases a fingering requires a jump. And sometimes I have more option when to jump (one or two notes earlier or later). In some cases I found it helpful to avoid a jump, if the other hand is very stressed. For instance, if one hand requires a jump, I don't want the other hand to do a jump at the same time. Or if I want to have my eyes on the keyboard for a complicated passage. This is another reasons to postpone the jump, or do it earlier. Even at the cost of the most economic fingering.

Sophia

I don't have any advice to offer. But I know good fingering can make all the difference in the world! When rsl and I learned the duet/jazzy version of Pachelbel together, I was overwhelmed at first. Then he kindly helped me find the best finger settings and suddenly things became a lot less daunting. This happened more than once. So I know what a difference it can make to get advice from a seasoned player 😃