What is Post-Classical music?

rsl12

I'm starting a new thread for this.

ShiroKuro Do you want suggestions for post-classical added to the suggestion form, or do you want some online discussion?

All suggestions should go in the Suggestion Box. That's the only place I look when I'm creating a list of PIYW candidates to vote for.

If you like, we can discuss what is "Post-classical" (and whether a better name for the genre exists). ShiroKuro and I had a discussion about it a while ago, and we agreed that currently there's no universally agreed definition or name for the genre. I wrote the following "definition" on the Recital Schedule:

Post-Classical: As described on this website. Example composers include Yiruma, Einaudi, Richter, and Ffrench.

If, through this discussion, you all come up with a better way of describing it, I will steal your definition for future use!

PS. The Post-Classical PIYW is scheduled for September, which means I need suggestions by July 1 or so. All help is appreciated, as my knowledge & experience in the genre is extremely limited!

Nightowl

rsl12 For me, post classical means anything composed from 1900 onwards, regardless of what style the music is in, or whether it was composed using classical "rules". So, 20th century music onwards.

rsl12

WieWaldi Does the Feather Theme by Forrest Gump (aka Alan Silvstri) count as post classical?
Or go for it as Movie/Showtune instead

I personally would classify it as "Movie/Showtune". It's more dramatic and wanders harmonically in a way I don't associate with post-classical. Also (not that it really matters), none of the other compositions of Alan Silvstri seem to fit as post-classical.

KevinM

I don't think one piece or composer belonging to one category, excludes it from another.

For example I came across Agnes Obel from the German Netflix Series Dark. I feel that she fits within a modern or post classical framing and I'm fairly certain her music has been used in movies.

I learnt a couple of pieces of hers a few years back now.

and

But I think she could at least fit in the post classical category.

rsl12

KevinM I don't think one piece or composer belonging to one category, excludes it from another.

Yes, music genres are fuzzy things. But for PIYW purposes, I try and fit all pieces into one category or another, so that genre-crossing pieces don't have an unfair advantage (for example, "Golden" from "K-Pop Demon Hunters" counts as both "Movie/Showtune" and "Popular", but I only put it up to vote as a "Movie/Showtune"). I realize others may not agree with my choices.

rsl12

KevinM I think she could at least fit in the post classical category.

I took a listen and I agree!

KevinM

rsl12 Thanks, as long as I understand the thinking I can follow along.

ShiroKuro

Some of the composers I would put in this genre include (in no particular order, although maybe I should go through and rearrange in terms of total difficulty…) Also, some of these composers do have some movie scores, so I’ll include that for those who do.

George Winston
Ludovico Einaudi (some of his pieces are movie music, but for movies less well-known in the U.S.)
Yann Teirsen (of Amelie fame, so yes, he should go in movie music, but stylistically he fits best here)
Joe Hisaishi (people in the U.S. would put him in the anime category, but he has sooo much that isn’t)
Ryuichi Sakamoto (some movie music but lots that isn’t)
David Lanz
Michelle McLaughlin
David Nevue (he’s among the easiest in this genre, as long as you’re ok with contemporary-style syncopation)
Max Richter (some movie music)
Yiruma (of “River Flows In You” fame, not movie music)
Alexis Ffrench
Brian Crain
David Hicken
Doug Hammer
Michael Nyman (stylistically, he belongs here, but his two most famous pieces are from a movie score)
Helen Jane Long (probably a lot of pieces used in commercials in the UK??)
Jim Brickman
Chad Lawson
Jon Schmidt (of Piano Guys fame, he writes tons of solo piano compositions)
Olafur Arnalds
Joep Beving (someone I’m only just starting to get to know)
Nils Frahm

Philip Glass — I feel like he doesn’t fit with the above composers… Maybe because to me, Glass is the quintessential “art music,” and someone like Einaudi is much, much more accessible for the general listener…

Regarding labels, if memory serves (although mine often doesn’t) we’ve discussed this before here, so apologies if this is a repeat, but here are some of the terms and my comments about them:

Neoclassical: this has been used to describe by Einaudi and Ffrench, but there is a lot of quibbling about this label. Although I think neither of them has rejected this term and maybe Ffrench has even embraced it in the past. Another problem with this term is its use in other fields (architecture right?) so I think this is a term that’s best avoided.

New age: many of the artists who get labeled new age have said in interviews that they don’t like this label. Famously, Einaudi and Winston have both rejected this label. Winston called his music folk or folk piano. If memory serves (there we are again) Einaudi favors ambient or similar terminology… or maybe he was only with the Neo classical label?? I cannot recall.

Minimalism: I feel like this really most closely applies to Philip Glass. Einaudi and Ffrench in particular are too melody-forward for this label, in my opinion. Although I am pretty sure Einaudi has responded positively to this label when asked about it in interviews.

Classical soul: Ffrench likes this term to describe himself but I don’t think it fits for many others in the list so it’s not helpful as an umbrella term.

Post-classical: this is a great term because it has embedded in it the point that the technique to play this kind of music is based on classical music (as opposed to jazz), it’s instrumental music, but doesn’t have to be limited to solo piano, and a lot of the artists above compose for piano and stings etc. And for non-musicians, or for classical musicians, the term is probably easier to understand than the other terms above.

The term I used to use most often is “contemporary solo piano” but it’s sort of inelegant because it’s such a mouthful. I used to call it popular piano but that doesn’t work for all the artists above either (although it works for the Piano Guys!) In Japanese it’s called 癒し系 but in English that’s “healing music,” and I feel like in English that is associated with music that has lots of atmospheric synth and nature sounds (which I hate 😅

So I think this genre should really just be described as post-classical and I am going to start using this term more intentionally! And replace “contemporary solo piano” with “post-classical”

Thanks @rsl12 for helping me articulate that for myself! 😃

ShiroKuro

Nightowl post classical means anything composed from 1900 onwards, regardless of what style the music is in, or whether it was composed using classical "rules". So, 20th century music onwards

But — unless I’m misunderstanding you — by that definition, it would include jazz, contemporary pop music, blues, rap, hip hop, heavy metal….…

It also suggests that anything composed after 1900 can’t be considered classical, which I don’t think is accurate.

rsl12

Nightowl

Nightowl For me, post classical means anything composed from 1900 onwards

Change "1900" to "1820" (approximately the end of the classical era of music) and I agree with you--that's what I immediately think of, so the term is confusing. However, for lack of a better option, I think "post-classical" is the best choice of the currently used terms, which ShiroKuro kindly listed and summarized.

Calling other players of this music: @rogerch, @MarieJ, @bSharp, @Gooseberry, @lilypad.

For PIYW purposes, I'm okay with any term/definition that will be understood by potential participants. I just don't want any of the people listed to ignore something called "post-classical" because they think it doesn't apply to them.

rogerch

rsl12 I think of this kind of music as "New Age". But "post-classical" works too, and hopefully fewer people object to "post-classical".

Another artist in this category whose music I've played in Suzanne Ciani.

Sophia

rsl12 "1900" to "1820"

In that case, I could polish up Chopsticks and still play the correct genre 😃

WieWaldi

rsl12 Change "1900" to "1820" (approximately the end of the classical era of music) and I agree with you--that's what I immediately think of, so the term is confusing.

I would say 1900 is about the end of classical music, and 1820 the end of the classical period. Because after the classical period, there was the romantic period, still belonging to classical music. Those terms are indeed so confusing. (Like crocodiles vs real crocodiles. An aligator is a crocodile, but not a real crocodile.) It makes sense to keep the word "classical" for our PIYW genre. Post-classical is okay. Neo-classical would be another contender. A german classical-music radio station used this term for Yiruma and I would prefer it over post-classical. "Post" means, something is over and there is something new instead of it (cakewalk, ragtime, blues, boogie, rock n roll, hard-rock, pop, rap, electronic...).

MarieJ

TC3, rsl12 I agree, the website linked in the first post discusses the diffiulties and comes up with post-classical music as the best working definition for the genre. So I think 'post-classical' fits well enough here. (We could narrow it down to 'post-classical piano' - but on this site 'piano' is a given.) 😊

ShiroKuro

rogerch

rogerch I think of this kind of music as "New Age". But "post-classical" works too, and hopefully fewer people object to "post-classical".

There are two problems with the term “new age.” First, the association with new age religion(s), which is not relevant to the music most often labeled new age. Second, new age music often refers to “meditative” music that includes nature sounds (something none of the composers I listed above do). And third, the fact that most of the people who play this music (like me) and many of the people who write it (including Winston, Einaudi, French, Nevue) have said that they don’t like the label.

Ok that was three problems 😁 and arguably the third is the most important one.

The label post-classical is clearly not without its drawbacks, but it’s definitely preferable to new age. IMO

KevinM

If we took it back to 1820 that would include quite a few composers I think of as classical. Chopin, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms and Schubert being borderline.

Most of these are part of the romantic movement. Is that your thinking of the delineation?

KevinM

I am currently learning Schumann’s Scheherazade and the feel of that piece could easily be interpreted as a new age impressionistic piece.

Clearly a lot of crossover.

rogerch

ShiroKuro rogerch I think of this kind of music as "New Age". But "post-classical" works too, and hopefully fewer people object to "post-classical".

There are two problems with the term “new age.” First, the association with new age religion(s), which is not relevant to the music most often labeled new age. Second, new age music often refers to “meditative” music that includes nature sounds (something none of the composers I listed above do). And third, the fact that most of the people who play this music (like me) and many of the people who write it (including Winston, Einaudi, French, Nevue) have said that they don’t like the label.

Ok that was three problems 😁 and arguably the third is the most important one.

I had no idea about any of this until I started reading piano forums a few years ago. To me New Age music is a genre of beautiful music by contemporary composers that I really like. New Age still has positive connotations to me, even though other people don't like it.

I care more about the music than the label so I have no problem with calling it something else.

ShiroKuro

WieWaldi "Post" means, something is over

I think of post, when used like this, to mean "after," not over or finished.

Anyway, while I prefer post-classical, neo-classical is ok as well.

The problem, which just can't be escaped, is that "classical" with regard to music has two meanings, one is the overall label of classical (as compared to popular, jazz, etc.) and the other is the one that I think people are talking about here, which is classic in comparison to baroque or romantic...

Both post-classical and neo-classical are building off of the former (classical as a general label) rather than the latter.

pianoloverus

WieWaldi I would say 1900 is about the end of classical music, and 1820 the end of the classical period.

I can't agree with your statement about 1900 being the end of classical music. What would you call composers like Debussy, Ravel, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Shostakovich and Barber, just to name a few composers that are virtually universally labeled as classical composers from the first half of 20th century?

A google search gives:
Key 20th-century classical composers revolutionized music through modernism, atonality, neoclassicism, and minimalism, with major figures including Igor Stravinsky, Arnold Schoenberg, Béla Bartók, and Dmitri Shostakovich. Other highly influential composers include Aaron Copland, Benjamin Britten, Philip Glass, and Claude Debussy, navigating styles from raw expressionism to film music.
Key 20th-Century Composers (Categorized)

The "A" List (Innovators): Igor Stravinsky (early, middle, and late styles), Arnold Schoenberg (atonal/12-tone), Béla Bartók (folk-influenced), and Anton Webern (expressionism). 
Major Modernists & Expressionists: Dmitri Shostakovich, Sergei Prokofiev, Alban Berg, Edgard Varèse, and Charles Ives. 
Postmodernism & Experimentalism: John Cage (chance music), Philip Glass (minimalist), Karlheinz Stockhausen (electronic), and György Ligeti. 
Neo-Romantic & Contemporary: Samuel Barber, Arvo Pärt, Kaija Saariaho, and Krzysztof Penderecki. 
Film/Accessible Classical: John Williams, George Gershwin, and Leonard Bernstein.

Key Trends and Styles

Modernism/Expressionism: Breaking traditional harmony, led by the Second Viennese School (Schoenberg, Berg, Webern).
Neoclassicism: A return to classical forms, notably by Stravinsky and Prokofiev.
Minimalism: Focused on repetition and subtle change, popularized by Philip Glass.
Avant-garde: Avant-garde techniques, such as those used by John Cage and John Tavener.

Key British Composers

Benjamin Britten, Vaughan Williams, William Walton, and Michael Tippett are highlighted as crucial figures in the 20th-century British scene.

Other Prominent Voices

Sergei Rachmaninoff is frequently cited as a major, though more traditional, 20th-century figure.
Lili Boulanger is often noted for her significant contributions.

rsl12

WieWaldi Neo-classical would be another contender.

The problem with "neoclassical" is that the term already has a different meaning.

ShiroKuro

rogerch I care more about the music than the label

This is of course the answer!!

Although we do need something to label the PIYW genre 😅

Anyway it seems like the consensus is leaning toward post-classical, which I think is the best choice, so that’s nice 😁

WieWaldi

rsl12 Yes - I asked AI and they did a differentation between both term. In this case, post classical seems to be the best one.