My Clementi Nemesis

KevinM

This piece is winning against me. Clementi Sonatine 36,3 first movement.

I just can't do the scale runs consistently well. I have made it harder for myself by changing my approach to doing the scale runs and as soon as I lose total focus for a moment I fall back into the old pattern.

Not sure I'll get a satisfactory recording of this piece at my current level.

pianoloverus

KevinM I just can't do the scale runs consistently well. I have made it harder for myself by changing my approach to doing the scale runs and as soon as I lose total focus for a moment I fall back into the old pattern.

The first part before the scale runs went very well so improving the scale passages may just be a question of practice. Have you practiced the part with the scales separately?
Here are some other standard approaches that may help:

Practice the difficult parts quite slowly and gradually speed up.
Practice in small chunks or one or two measures and then put the chunks together.
Make sure you are using consistent fingering and write it in where necessary.
Passages in 16th notes can often be improved by practicing them in rhythms.

What do you mean when you say you change your approach to playing the scale runs?

lilypad

KevinM You have my sympathy. I've been working on 3rd movement of what must be the same sonatina. My score says Clementi Sonatina Op. 36, No. 3, III. I've been at it since late February and even gave up on it for a week before trying again. All the little details give are giving me fits. In the past I would have been lazy and just played the notes, but I'm trying to hold myself to a higher standard now and am attempting to incorporate all the score markings. Dynamics aren't a problem, but the mix of staccato/legato and observing the rests are like playing whack-a-mole.

twocats

KevinM one thing that should really help that first scale is that I noticed that your wrists are very static, as in when you tuck your thumb under that your wrist is in the same position. When you play the first 1-2-3 I would start shifting your wrist to the right and having your hand at an angle, so that it is easy to tuck your thumb under. Happy to take a video if you need a demo. Hope this helps!

KevinM

I would say 90% of my practice is just the scale runs. A lot of time is spent on practicing the scales separately.

Of the four things you noted, I have done the first three, but I don't know what you mean by practicing in rhythms.

pianoloverus

KevinM Of the four things you noted, I have done the first three, but I don't know what you mean by practicing in rhythms.

Here's one video showing some types of rhythms for practicing 16th note passages.

I don't know why this method often helps(and discussions about that have usually given many different answers) but I do know it's very commonly recommended. You don't really have do all the different rhythms suggested. The most basic ones would be (1)LSLS, (2)SLSL, and (3)LSSS.

What happens when you try playing the difficult passages very slowly and gradually speed up?

KevinM

Thanks for this.

I am going to give the rhythms method a go.

As to playing slowly and speeding up, I can increase the speed and evenness of what I am playing at the time. But doing this repeatedly over time does not provide a lasting improvement.

What has improved things was the slow practice discussed on pianotell recently. That has resulted in a step change in improvement. I'm not sure if I can leverage further improvement from continuing with that approach but I will continue to include slow practice where I am reading every note I am playing as part of my practice.

pianoloverus

KevinM As to playing slowly and speeding up, I can increase the speed and evenness of what I am playing at the time. But doing this repeatedly over time does not provide a lasting improvement.

Do you mean that on a given day gradually speeding up the tempo seems successful but the next day everything seems to be falling apart again? Perhaps you could try speeding up more gradually. For example, on day one practice the passages at 50 and 60% of the final speed. Then for a few days try 60% and 70% of the final speed. etc.

TC3

lilypad I've been working on 3rd movement of what must be the same sonatina. My score says Clementi Sonatina Op. 36, No. 3, III.

Ugh, yeah. I started on that one a couple of months ago myself. It's in the same RCM grade 5 book as the Bach piece I posted recently that I think I managed minimally competently, but it feels so much harder. I made a bit of progress, but I've set it aside for a while and will give it another try later!

lilypad

TC3 Yeah, I switched to a Diabelli piece in the same book for about a week, but didn't like it nearly as well as the Clementi so I dropped that and switched back. It's unlikely I'll ever be able to play the Clementi up to the marked tempo. Good thing I'm not taking exams!

KevinM

pianoloverus Yes, I can practice and increase the speed I can play at a little while keeping the tempo smooth by starting slow and gradually increasing the speed over multiple repetitions.

But the benefit is always short lived. Even if I go back on the same day for a second practice session that improvement is gone.

KevinM

The rhythm practice does seem to be helping.

I wasn't expecting this, so didn't record video. But I have midi recording always on so could replay it easily and record the audio.

I've noticed I've increased the tempo in this recording between about 2:45 and 3mins for an unknown reason. But this feels like an improvement with the 16th note runs.

pianoloverus

KevinM I've noticed I've increased the tempo in this recording between about 2:45 and 3mins for an unknown reason. But this feels like an improvement with the 16th note runs.

Have you tried practicing the piece with a metronome at a slower pace than this recording? Can you hear that the playing is not always even and sometimes not in time (I'm guessing due to some technical issues)? I think practicing it at a speed where you can play it perfectly evenly with the metronome could be a good idea. I wouldn't try about to get the piece up to the final tempo until you can play it evenly at a somewhat slower speed.

KevinM

Still work to be done, but this feels like progress when I've been blocked, appreciate the help.

KevinM

There are multiple technical issues, yes. I am at the limit of how fast I can play the 16th notes in this recording and yet this tempo is about 55% of the expected tempo for this piece. I cannot get this piece up to the expected tempo and have no desire to try and do so, if I can achieve the current tempo while playing with a consistent tempo I will be happy. I need to get the runs to be even and consistent and no longer at the limit of how fast I can play the notes, then I can build from there. If I can't do that I'll have to slow the tempo further so I am not at the limit of how fast I can actually play.

I have used the metronome weeks ago for this piece but recently my focus has been trying to improve the 16th note scale runs because that is the limiting factor. Once I can get comfortable playing those at this speed.

pianoloverus

KevinM There are multiple technical issues, yes. I am at the limit of how fast I can play the 16th notes in this recording and yet this tempo is about 55% of the expected tempo for this piece. I cannot get this piece up to the expected tempo and have no desire to try and do so, if I can achieve the current tempo while playing with a consistent tempo I will be happy. I need to get the runs to be even and consistent and when they are I can build from there.

I have used the metronome weeks ago for this piece but recently my focus has been trying to improve the 16th note scale runs because that is the limiting factor. Once I can get comfortable playing those at this speed.

I am very surprised to hear that the tempo in your recording is only 55% of the expected tempo. I honestly thought the speed in your recording In the opening section which you find easier would be absolutely fine as a final tempo as long as you could get the runs more even and in time. I think in order to get the scale runs better you need to practice the piece more slowly for a while. The only problem is that if there is something very basically wrong with your technique, just slow practice by itself may not be enough to improve these passages.

KevinM

Apologies, I remembered the numbers incorrectly. It is like 75% of the expected tempo. But still beyond my capabilities.

KevinM

Your comment about technique could well be spot on. I'll have to have a think about that.

KevinM

I suspect whatever it is about my technique it is limiting my ability to play scale runs, trills and turns. Everything that requires speed is limited. I've ignored the trills in this piece and played them as 16th notes because I can't play them any faster.

KevinM

I've updated the original video. Upped the tempo, a couple of spots where it felt like my brain exceeded the bandwidth of the nerve fibers and there are brief stutters, and a short of run wrong notes.

KevinM

Totally failed at anything like this at this tempo before the practicing in rhythms. A very tedious recording with the metronome banging away at me. Equivalent to 90 instead of 120 as it should be. I move off the beat in a couple of places before regaining again.