What makes piano hard?

ranjit

I was thinking about this yesterday. It felt like the only thing that makes piano difficult is an ungodly amount of fine motor control of the fingers. Music theory is easy to learn (it's just a system whose difficulty is blown way out of proportion), and musical details can be taught. But the best players seemingly have an ability to control each finger independently to an incredible degree without tensing up, and for those with that talent, it almost feels like it doesn't matter how they learn, as long as they put in effort -- they are the natural pianists who pretty much always 'get there'. So, it feels like the only truly difficult part of it, that may well be largely innate, is that incredible fine motor control of the fingers. What do you think?

keff

ranjit In my opinion it is just the number of notes that have to be read at the same time. Worse for organ players. I think all orchestral instruments are difficult to make them sound nice. I do not think piano is more difficult than the orchestral string family, woodwind or French horn.

ShiroKuro

ranjit what a fun topic, thank you for starting it! I agree with @ZigZagStory , you'll get different answers depending on who you ask. Here's mine. 😃

ranjit the only thing that makes piano difficult is an ungodly amount of fine motor control of the fingers.

Interestingly enough, I would say this, the fine motor control, is the easiest part about playing the piano. It's so much easier to play a piano than it is to play a string instrument. Classical guitar, which is another instrument that allows you to play melody and accompaniment at the same time, is much harder. When I first started learning piano, I couldn't believe how much easier it was than guitar. I eventually came to believe that piano is just easy to get started with, but it gets progressively harder as you go along.

Music theory is easy to learn (it's just a system whose difficulty is blown way out of proportion), and musical details can be taught.

I think you're underestimating the difficulty of music theory and musical details. Certain aspects of theory are pretty straightforward, and yes, musical details can be taught. But knowing music theory, and putting that theory into practice, are two different things. Being able to use knowledge of music theory is much more difficult and requires a level of musical literacy that few achieve.

keff In my opinion it is just the number of notes that have to be read at the same time.

I agree with this. I think this is a big part of what makes piano difficult. You can play an accompaniment part, a melody part, and inner voices, all at the same time. And whether you're reading that from a score while playing, or playing/improvising without a score, it's a lot to keep track of.

Think about speaking. We can't say two different words, two different sentences, at the same time. But when playing the piano, that's often exactly what we're going, and often more than two. And truly advanced compositions are just so complex, and dense in the sense of having multiple musical ideas...

Add to that the complexity of score reading, and to me, that's what makes piano so hard.

twocats

ranjit and musical details can be taught

Musical details are everything! You can be taught some details but as PL said, one has to have "musical understanding" which is far more than just details. The technical difficulty is to execute on that understanding.

Playing/reading many notes at once, requiring fine motor control of independent fingers is definitely more of a challenge when compared to other instruments. But IMO it's difficult to play any instrument really well!

Sophia

ranjit So, it feels like the only truly difficult part of it, that may well be largely innate, is that incredible fine motor control of the fingers. What do you think?

Ok, I'll bite 🙂 I admit I didn't read all of the comments yet, so if I accidentally contradicted or copied someone else, I assure you that wasn't intentional.

I am of the opinion that the above is only part of the story. Natural musical ability definitely plays a large part as well. That part you are born with - or not. This means that some people struggle with certain things, no matter how hard they try. And others "get" it right from the start, whether they try or not. In all cases this can be enhanced by practising long and hard of course.

A good teacher will know which type a student fall under almost right away, after a few lessons. A wise teacher will not mention that to the student though for obvious reasons 🙂

The above only matters when someone is young and pursuing a career in music. In all other cases, it's a hobby and that means it's all good, just play for enjoyment and personal progress 😃

pianoloverus

"Fine motor control of the fingers" is quite vague but seems mostly to mean hitting the right notes at the right time with the right dynamic. One could say the same thing about playing the violin. And you are discussing only the technical part of playing an instrument but musical understanding is equally important.

ZigZagStory

You would probably hear different answers from different players.
IMO playing just with technique (hitting the right key/s at the right time) would sound robotic/midi.
After you do that you “just” have to tell a story when you play and convey your art.
For me this is the real challenge (and much more tricky to learn than technique)

pianoloverus

ZigZagStory IMO playing just with technique (hitting the right key/s at the right time) would sound robotic/midi.

That's why I said musicality is just as important as technique to more than ever.

iternabe

ShiroKuro But knowing music theory, and putting that theory into practice, are two different things. Being able to use knowledge of music theory is much more difficult and requires a level of musical literacy that few achieve.

So true! This has been the recurring topic in my lessons with @Seeker.

pianoloverus

ShiroKuro Think about speaking. We can't say two different words, two different sentences, at the same time. But when playing the piano, that's often exactly what we're going, and often more than two.

Although the number of simultaneous notes or musical lines could be considered making piano playing difficult, I don't think this comparison is valid. Any piano student at their first lesson can play two notes simultaneously even though no one with any amount of practice can say two different sentences at once.

ranjit

ShiroKuro Interestingly enough, I would say this, the fine motor control, is the easiest part about playing the piano. It's so much easier to play a piano than it is to play a string instrument.

I think it ties in with what I've been struggling with lately. Playing the notes is not difficult, even at tempo to some extent, but getting the fingers to execute precise dynamics and stay even gets very challenging very quickly.

thepianoplayer416

In my younger days I started with a recorder in school. At 11 a cousin who was taking piano lessons with an RCM level teacher showed me pieces out of a beginner book. The first piece has the name "Indian Dance" with repeated LH chords. Playing 3 notes on the same hand was definitely an issue. The next piece was a stripped down version of the Haydn Surprise Symphony 94 - Andante in C also with LH chords. My cousin who had been learning for a few years was able to play beginner pieces without effort. I thought that playing probably requires a lot talent than someone spending many hours practicing. My first encounter with the piano wasn't a positive experience. I ended up learning violin for a few years and didn't touch piano for a few decades. Reading music wasn't my biggest obstacle when I was ready to take up piano. I'd read over the sheet music to learn the notes and work out the finger sequences after.

Regardless of what instrument we chose, we have to figure out the technical challenges of that instrument. If we play a trumpet, flute or clarinet we need to get air into the tube properly to get a good sound. Playing a violin or cello we need the LH fingers in the right places to get good tuning and good control of the bow with the RH. Reading music is part of learning many instruments. Getting a good sound requires good techniques.

Technical difficulties aside, part of being able to learn an instrument is psychology. Visualizing yourself playing a piece would help to get you there. If you're telling yourself a piece is too difficult, your mind is stopping you from trying it.
Today I was at a friend's house playing 2 short pieces from Christmas. I missed the big gathering at her house 2 weeks earlier. Sat down at the piano in the living room and played the pieces I intended for the party earlier. Played them rather relaxed. Learning pieces at a given level is the matter of repetition once you convinced yourself the piece is playable.

KevinM

Only related, not directly related to this thread.

But with almost 4 years away from the piano, after about the same amount of time at the piano, after having had lessons well over 40 years previously as a child.

Right now what I'm noticing is my ability to read ahead of where I am playing in the score is really bad. The speed at which my fingers can move is like that of a sloth and it has never been good as an adult. No trills for me.

I'm also noticing stretching for 3rds, 4ths or 5ths is really bad. I'm still trying to work out if this is my poor reading ahead of the music and I can see I need to do a stretch 4th in the left hand but then do it on the right hand when that just needed a comfortable 3rd. Or it could just be I've lost that automatic spatial perception of what a 3rd, 4th or 5th is.

But perhaps learning the piano is hard not because piano is essentially hard. But that composers recognize they can create music of greater complexity for the piano than many other instruments because the piano itself is relatively easier to play. It just comes down to that inevitable human thing of pushing the limits of whatever it is.

HeartKeys

I think to me “playing the piano WELL” is hard.

ShiroKuro

pianoloverus I don't think this comparison is valid. Any piano student at their first lesson can play two notes simultaneously even though no one with any amount of practice can say two different sentences at once.

It may not be the best comparison, but try not to be so pedantic. Try to focus on what's interesting here, what's related to the discussion of what makes piano so difficult.

My point was that while some are saying it's fine motor control, I was suggesting that it's the complexity of musical ideas that a pianist has to bring out simultaneously. I'm not sure whether I agree with myself or not, but this is the more interesting (and relevant) point, rather than trying to arrive at the perfect comparison.

twocats Playing/reading many notes at once, requiring fine motor control of independent fingers is definitely more of a challenge when compared to other instruments.

When playing some duet music, I remember once being kind of disgusted with the sheer simplicity of the violin part that my friend played compared to the piano part I had to play. 😅

But IMO it's difficult to play any instrument really well!

I agree with this! Once you get past a certain level, and musicality is at the top of the list of things you're working on, any instrument is challenging.

ranjit I think it ties in with what I've been struggling with lately. Playing the notes is not difficult, even at tempo to some extent, but getting the fingers to execute precise dynamics and stay even gets very challenging very quickly.

This reminds me... I was very quick to offer a disagreement with your comment about fine motor control being the hardest aspect, but it certainly is nothing to sneeze at! Playing a complex passage while trying to make just one note sing out (for example) is definitely one of the challenges of piano.

So, are there only two aspects that we're all talking about here?
1) fine motor control and the finger aspects of technique
2) the complexity of the music that's made possible by having 10 fingers and 88 keys.

I didn't add music theory here because theoretically (har) that would be the same challenge for any instrument, but theory does require more of the pianist than of other musicians, so maybe it should go in this list?

Is there anything else we should include that hasn't come up yet? (Or that did come up but I missed)

Maybe (going back to @KevinM 's comment) we should add sightreading? Because sightreading is crazy-easy with a single note instrument like a clarinet or flute. Well and then I'll add @twocats 's comment.

So which of the following aspects is most responsible for making piano so difficult?
1) fine motor control and the finger aspects of technique
2) the complexity of the music that's made possible by having 10 fingers and 88 keys.
3) music theory as it applies to piano
4) sightreading piano music
5) musicality and musical understanding

Should I create a poll? 😃

KevinM

pianoloverus Although the number of simultaneous notes or musical lines could be considered making piano playing difficult, I don't think this comparison is valid. Any piano student at their first lesson can play two notes simultaneously even though no one with any amount of practice can say two different sentences at once.

I think this is a false equivalence. Being able to play two notes simultaneously is unrelated to being able to play multiple themes simultaneously. One is trivial enough a student can do the first time they sit down at the piano, the other requires practice, skill and experience.

twocats

ShiroKuro So which of the following aspects is most responsible for making piano so difficult?

Where's the "all of the above" option? 😆

ranjit

ShiroKuro 1) fine motor control and the finger aspects of technique
2) the complexity of the music that's made possible by having 10 fingers and 88 keys.
3) music theory as it applies to piano
4) sightreading piano music
5) musicality and musical understanding

I think 1 is really what's the most difficult, even tending towards impossible if you're looking at concert standard.

The complexity of the standard repertoire only gets so difficult, and in my experience, simply coordinating and managing several things simultaneously is something that you can get very good at with practice.

Music theory is pretty easy, relatively speaking, even when applied to piano. But it is a slightly different skill, it's something that being academically inclined helps with immensely.

Sight reading is extremely difficult and the only thing that matches 1) in terms of difficulty, and may even exceed it. But it is a "niche" skill at the highest levels.

I think many people, even with a good ear for music who have listened to music all their lives without playing it, can play very musically, so it's less difficult than 1 and 4.

pianoloverus

ShiroKuro pianoloverus I don't think this comparison is valid. Any piano student at their first lesson can play two notes simultaneously even though no one with any amount of practice can say two different sentences at once.

It may not be the best comparison, but try not to be so pedantic. Try to focus on what's interesting here, what's related to the discussion of what makes piano so difficult.

What you find interesting may not be what someone else finds interesting. Posters should not be discouraged about disagreeing with what another poster writes.

ShiroKuro

twocats Where's the "all of the above" option? 😆

🤣🤣🤣

twocats

ranjit I think it's fair to say that different people have varying skillsets and level of experience and will find different things to be difficult.

I don't find music theory particularly easy. But playing with precise dynamics while staying even is not a problem for me 🤷‍♀️ I've put in plenty of hours though, everything gets easier with practice. Sight reading is also a skill that can be developed.

ShiroKuro

ranjit something that you can get very good at with practice.

Hmmm…. I think @ranjit you are hitting at a key point maybe without realizing it, or at least without focusing on it…. Specifically, the question of how much practice time is required for each of the different aspects/skills that we’re discussing here. I’m thinking now of the way the US Dept of State ranks different languages based on how many hours of study is required for a native speaker of English to acquire professional fluency in the language. The answer would be different for someone whose native language isn’t English. So for piano, we could make groups for those who played piano as children, those who played other instruments as children, those who had no musical study as children… Or we could make groups based on someone’s background in terms of academic study of music, formal lessons, no formal lessons… or not, maybe this gets too complicated.

Anyway, I think the question of how long it takes to develop the different skills is a good one. For example, yes, music theory can be learned, but it takes a lot of very focused study to put that music theory knowledge into practice while actually playing. By the same token, true sightreading is something that people spend years on developing, often with very unsatisfying results.

Hmm, I lost where I was going here! 😅

Anyway, we’re not likely to fully agree, but that’s ok. I personally think it’s #2,3, and 4 (in my list above) that make piano so hard, because those are the aspects that require really focused practice over the course of several years. (You can’t even get to the fine motor control issues of some technique aspects until you get into that complex music anyway, although now we’re getting into a chicken/egg kind of question)

Does anyone know if this site has a poll function? I’m not seeing it…

iternabe

ShiroKuro Specifically, the question of how much practice time is required for each of the different aspects/skills that we’re discussing here.

10,000 hours 😉

ranjit

ShiroKuro Hmmm…. I think you are hitting at a key point maybe without realizing it, or at least without focusing on it…. Specifically, the question of how much practice time is required for each of the different aspects/skills that we’re discussing here.

Yes, that's kind of how I see "difficulty". How much time would it take to learn something under ideal circumstances?

I feel like music theory can be learned and applied to pieces in a semester if you have a very good teacher/professor who knows what they are doing. I mean being able to figure out the chords and chord progressions to most standard classical/romantic pieces, and use it when you learn new pieces. The patterns are not that complicated.

Sight reading ability is less trainable and more innate, I think. I don't think being able to see and remember what comes ahead can be trained beyond your natural limit (probably set by working memory). Never say never, but it feels that way.

And the sort of natural coordination that say Argerich has seems really quite innate. Like some very talented children (prodigies) can almost immediately just get their fingers to execute things at a high level. I'm not sure what exactly causes the enhanced hand-eye coordination, but you know it when you see it.

I think musicality is one place where I struggle to really understand how people learn it, but feel like it can be learned. I can't really prove it either way. I think many people approach it wrong. Ultimately, if you can imagine the sound, you can likely eventually play very musically imo. It requires tons of focused listening (which very few people do) -- but I can't really say either way whether focused listening is sufficient.

ShiroKuro

iternabe Good point!

On the other hand, google "debunking the 10,000 hour rule" and we can find tons of articles.

One core issue with the 10,000 hour rule is the quality of practice... But still (at the risk of contradicting myself again), I do think, in the discussion here, amount of time is one somewhat useful metric. The trouble, of course, is that there's just as much "individual difference" with practice time as there is with other aspects...