Ravel Ornaments

PianogrlNW

I'm learning the Menuet from Le Tombeau de Couperin and wondering if the grace notes should be played on or before the beat. I have read in a couple of places that the principle grace note, D in this case, should be played on the beat with the upper note quickly following it. When I listen to recordings I can't tell how it's executed.

pianoloverus

I listened to a few recordings and I think they play it on the beat or very, very slightly before.

PianogrlNW

pianoloverus Yes, that’s how it sounds to me, but I can’t tell which. I guess I could go by what sounds most natural while not interrupting the pulse, but I would like it to be consistent.

pianoloverus

PianogrlNW You could also try slowing down the video, and then you could probably ascertain if most play the ornaments on the beat.

pseudonym58

You might play the music as it appears, with the grace notes before the beat. Ravel was particular about how his music was displayed on the page. There are also a few recordings of Ravel playing the piano (from piano rolls). Perhaps they might be of help.

pianoloverus

pseudonym58 I think grace notes are always printed before the beat. If I'm correct, then where they appear visually on the page is never relevant. I listened to a few top pianists playing this piece, and they always began the grace note on the beat or a microsecond before but never clearly before the beat.

MRC

pianoloverus I think grace notes are always printed before the beat. If I'm correct, then where they appear visually on the page is never relevant.

This is correct: it's a convention of music engraving to print grace notes before the beat, but whether they are actually played on or before the beat depends on style and context.

There's a general approximate rule (not to be slavishly followed!) that grace notes are played on the beat in baroque and classical music, and before the beat in romantic and later music. In this case we have a 20th century composer conjuring up an 18th century atmosphere. In order to give this piece the necessary baroque poise and elegance, it's better to play the grace notes on the beat.

I can think of no better example than Vlado Perlmuter, who studied all of Ravel's solo piano works with the composer himself.

pianoloverus

MRC For the Perlmuter recording I think, unlike the recordings I listened to, it's easy to hear the pianist plays the grace notes exactly on the beat.

I have played some transcriptions by Timothy Gondola. He employs two kinds of grace notes, with and without a slash. He specifies that one of them means play the grace note on the and the other means play it before the beat. Here's an example where you can see his two kinds of grace notes:

PianogrlNW

MRC Thanks for finding this video and posting it. I watched a Tonebase video of Gwendolyn Mok on playing Ravel. She studied with Perlmuter when he was in his late 80s, but she makes no mention of how to execute the grace notes. She does talk quite a bit about using restraint when playing Ravel and to carefully follow the score, avoid rubato, ritardando, etc. Perlmuter’s playing certainly captures that concept of restraint, as his performance sounds very no nonsense, matter of fact. And the grace notes are clearly on the beat and played very quickly.