I love the way this discussion has shifted to what counts as classical...

Re being born in the US, how about Billy Joel? And no, I don't mean his pop music, I mean his solo, classical piano music.

I think this is it:

OTOH, there's this, I Gironi, by Einaudi, which I always think of as having a very "popular music" feel, not pop music, but modern contemporary solo piano that I would call more "popular" than "classical." I think it's the chord progressions for me. Give a listen and tell me what you think:

  • SStub

  • Post #33
  • Edited

I have seen ragtime categorized as straddling both the classical and jazz genres. As Bart said above, there is a classical feel to the music, but the syncopations seem to many people to be foreign or exotic to classical music. Even amongst ragtime, where a piece fits can vary considerably. Compare Maple Leaf Rag with Solace (both by Joplin). Where would Graceful Ghost (Bolcom) fit? BTW, Graceful Ghost is one of my all-time favorite pieces of music. But it is way too difficult for me to play. I started to learn Solace (another beautiful piece) several years ago, put it aside, and came back to it last fall and got much further with it, but it's still not 100%. I admit to being somewhat ragtime-rhythm challenged. 😀

In fact imslp doesnot have all the composers of classical music. It has only only those for which we have works in a written form. But numerous composers either never published anything or their work was lost. So the 30000 can be considered as a minimum. Of course many of them are minor composers. And the question of what can be considered as classical is also to be factored.

  • Sam

  • Post #36

Pallas Bolcom won the pulitzer prize for his music and was a composition professor at the University of Washington. But even better, Marc Andre Hamelin recorded all of his rags. So they are a part of the "classical" repertoire. But so is his atonal music, like the etudes. Here is his non-tonal rag - all the elements of ragtime, but not tonal:

    Sam

    I counted that I've played at least one keyboard work by 13 "classical" composers not on the list.

    Interesting that Poulenc and Milhaud are the only members of Les Six who are represented on the list.

      Ithaca My brain automatically categorizes this as (popular) modern contemporary and definitely not classical, but I can't tell you why. (I could theorize, but really I'd be guessing.)

      I’m glad you hear it that way too! I do think it’s the chord progressions, but I could be wrong. It’s been a while since I’ve played it, maybe I should it back in my practice rotation and see if I think of it the same way.

      On a different note - wow, I had no idea that Billy Joel was capable of this level of composition. When I think of him, I just think of that spooky drugged-out photo of him on the Piano Man cassette. Thanks for posting the Fantasies & Delusions link.

      You’re welcome! When I was a kid (in junior high maybe?) I was really into Billy Joel (his rock/pop stuff). I started piano as an adult, in 1999. The score and recording of Fantasies and Delusions was released in 2001, my mother got it for me as a present. There was (and still is, I imagine) no way I could play these pieces, too advanced for me. But I think the pieces are wonderful. Somehow, to me, the pieces sound both contemporary and very traditionally “classical” at the same time. Whatever that means. 😅

        Perhaps the reason why Poulenc and Milhaud are on the list, as opposed to Honegger, Auric, Tailleferre, and Durey has to do with the amount of piano music written/performed/recorded.
        There are quite a few well-known pieces by Poulenc that have been recorded many times, same for Milhaud (especially the early pieces he wrote while living in Brazil, and some of the works he wrote during the 1920s).

        Regarding the pieces by Billy Joel, I note that they were arranged by someone else. It's not clear what that means in terms of the more "classical" & "pianistic" elements of the compositions.

          pseudonym58 Regarding the pieces by Billy Joel, I note that they were arranged by someone else. It's not clear what that means in terms of the more "classical" & "pianistic" elements of the compositions.

          Good point. I hadn't really noticed that. They are arranged by the pianist who performed them on the recording. To me the question is, how much "arranging" was there, and how "classical" were Billy Joel's original (unarranged) compositions.

          I'll have to look at my sheet music for this when I get home and see if it says anything beyond the "arranged by" part.

            Stub

            Scott Joplin is the on list, but way towards the bottom. If you were compiling a list of composers whose music got played, period, and not just in recitals, he would probably be much further up the list.

            If you include players of all levels, Bach's Anna Magdalena notebook and Schumann's Album for the Young may be the most played pieces.

            I think players with the ability to play Joplin rags well have studied the music of major classical piano composers and play a diverse repertoire. There are some pianists who choose to specialize in ragtime, but I think there are far fewer of them than pianists who play traditional classical repertoire.

            I do find Joplin's music to be much closer to classical piano than to jazz harmonically, as noted upthread by BartK. Joplin was influential on jazz musicians, though more through usage of rhythms than through harmony or form.

              In the mid-19th century, I think Handel and Mozart would have been at the top of the list (which of course would have been shorter than 100), but Scarlatti would have been omitted. My understanding is that Scarlatti's music was brought to the attention of classical pianists by virtue of Horowitz having included it in his repertoire.

              Sadly, Handel's music seems to have fallen off of the recital programs of professional pianists.

              Tbh isn't this just another instance of the Pareto principle? There's nothing that special here.

              The Pareto Principle would have about 20% of composers represented on about 80% of recital programs. The above list is much more skewed than that, to the extent of more being an exception to, rather than example of the Pareto Principle.

              • Sam

              • Post #49

              Just to give people something else to talk about, here are the top 100 pieces performed at Carnegie Hall, as extracted by me (probably with some errors) from the database over the time period from the first recital to 2018 (about 120 years).

              Rank Work Total Performances Plot List
              1 Chopin,Frederic,Ballade No. 1 in G Minor, Op. 23 280 Plot List
              2 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 23 in F Minor, Op. 57, "Appassionata" 260 Plot List
              3 Chopin,Frederic,Piano Sonata in B Minor, Op. 58 249 Plot List
              4 Chopin,Frederic,Ballade No. 4 in F Minor, Op. 52 235 Plot List
              5 Chopin,Frederic,Piano Sonata in B-flat Minor, Op. 35 231 Plot List
              6 Liszt,Franz,Piano Sonata in B Minor, S. 178 (R. 21) 228 Plot List
              7 Chopin,Frederic,Polonaise in A-flat Major, Op. 53 222 Plot List
              8 Chopin,Frederic,Ballade No. 3 in A-flat Major, Op. 47 216 Plot List
              9 Chopin,Frederic,Barcarolle in F-sharp Major, Op. 60 213 Plot List
              10 Chopin,Frederic,Scherzo No. 2 in B-flat Minor, Op. 31 202 Plot List
              11 Chopin,Frederic,Scherzo No. 3 in C-sharp Minor, Op. 39 201 Plot List
              12 Chopin,Frederic,Fantasie in F Minor, Op. 49 197 Plot List
              13 Schumann,Robert,Carnaval, Op. 9 187 Plot List
              14 Schumann,Robert,Fantasy in C Major, Op. 17 178 Plot List
              15 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 21 in C Major, Op. 53, "Waldstein" 177 Plot List
              16 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 32 in C Minor, Op. 111 174 Plot List
              17 Schumann,Robert,Études symphoniques, Op. 13 163 Plot List
              18 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 31 in A-flat Major, Op. 110 159 Plot List
              19 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 30 in E Major, Op. 109 157 Plot List
              20 Chopin,Frederic,Andante spianato et Grande polonaise brillante, Op. 22 151 Plot List
              21 Chopin,Frederic,Scherzo No. 1 in B Minor, Op. 20 149 Plot List
              22 Debussy,Claude,L'isle joyeuse 146 Plot List
              23 Chopin,Frederic,Nocturne in D-flat Major, Op. 27, No. 2 145 Plot List
              24 Chopin,Frederic,Berceuse in D-flat Major, Op. 57 145 Plot List
              25 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp Minor, Op. 27, No. 2, "Moonlight" 145 Plot List
              26 Bach,Johann Sebastian,Chromatic Fantasia and Fugue in D Minor, BWV 903 126 Plot List
              27 Mussorgsky,Modest,Pictures at an Exhibition 123 Plot List
              28 Liszt,Franz,Mephisto Waltz No. 1, S. 514, "Der Tanz in der Dorfschenke" 123 Plot List
              29 Chopin,Frederic,Ballade No. 2 in F Major, Op. 38 119 Plot List
              30 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 26 in E-flat Major, Op. 81a, "Les adieux" 111 Plot List
              31 Debussy,Claude,Préludes, Book II: Feux d'artifice 110 Plot List
              32 Brahms,Johannes,Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Handel, Op. 24 109 Plot List
              33 Brahms,Johannes,Piano Sonata No. 3 in F Minor, Op. 5 109 Plot List
              34 Schumann,Robert,Kreisleriana, Op. 16 108 Plot List
              35 Bach,Johann Sebastian,Chaconne from Violin Partita No. 2 in D Minor, BWV 1004 105 Plot List
              36 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 17 in D Minor, Op. 31, No. 2, "The Tempest" 104 Plot List
              37 Chopin,Frederic,Fantaisie-Impromptu in C-sharp Minor, Op. 66 101 Plot List
              38 Chopin,Frederic,Étude in C Minor, Op. 10, No. 12 99 Plot List
              39 Ravel,Maurice,Gaspard de la nuit 95 Plot List
              40 Chopin,Frederic,Étude in E Major, Op. 10, No. 3 95 Plot List
              41 Chopin,Frederic,Waltz in C-sharp Minor, Op. 64, No. 2 95 Plot List
              42 Chopin,Frederic,Nocturne in C Minor, Op. 48, No. 1 93 Plot List
              43 Prokofiev,Sergey,Piano Sonata No. 7 in B-flat Major, Op. 83 92 Plot List
              44 Chopin,Frederic,Étude in C-sharp Minor, Op. 10, No. 4 91 Plot List
              45 Chopin,Frederic,Polonaise in F-sharp Minor, Op. 44 91 Plot List
              46 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 8 in C Minor, Op. 13, "Pathétique" 91 Plot List
              47 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 18 in E-flat Major, Op. 31, No. 3 90 Plot List
              48 Liszt,Franz,Grandes études de Paganini, S. 141: Étude No. 3 in G-sharp Minor, "La campanella" 88 Plot List
              49 Chopin,Frederic,Impromptu in F-sharp Major, Op. 36 86 Plot List
              50 Chopin,Frederic,Polonaise-Fantaisie in A-flat Major, Op. 61 85 Plot List
              51 Chopin,Frederic,Nocturne in F-sharp Major, Op. 15, No. 2 85 Plot List
              52 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Thirty-Two Variations on an Original Theme in C Minor, WoO 80 85 Plot List
              53 Schubert,Franz,Fantasy in C Major, D. 760, "Wandererfantasie" 84 Plot List
              54 Chopin,Frederic,Étude in A-flat Major, Op. 25, No. 1 83 Plot List
              55 Ravel,Maurice,Sonatine in F-sharp Minor 81 Plot List
              56 Brahms,Johannes,Variations on a Theme by Paganini, Op. 35 81 Plot List
              57 Liszt,Franz,Années de pèlerinage, 2e année, Italie, S. 161: 5. Sonetto del Petrarca No. 104 80 Plot List
              58 Chopin,Frederic,Scherzo No. 4 in E Major, Op. 54 80 Plot List
              59 Ravel,Maurice,Jeux d'eau 79 Plot List
              60 Schumann,Robert,Arabeske, Op. 18 78 Plot List
              61 Debussy,Claude,Préludes, Book I: La cathédrale engloutie 78 Plot List
              62 Liszt,Franz,Hungarian Rhapsody No. 12 in C-sharp Minor, S. 244, No. 12 (R. 106) 77 Plot List
              63 Franck,César,Prélude, choral et fugue 77 Plot List
              64 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 7 in D Major, Op. 10, No. 3 77 Plot List
              65 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 28 in A Major, Op. 101 77 Plot List
              66 Chopin,Frederic,Étude in C-sharp Minor, Op. 25, No. 7 76 Plot List
              67 Chopin,Frederic,Nocturne in C-sharp Minor, Op. 27, No. 1 75 Plot List
              68 Rachmaninoff,Sergei,Prelude in G-sharp Minor, Op. 32, No. 12 74 Plot List
              69 Mendelssohn,Felix,Variations sérieuses, Op. 54 74 Plot List
              70 Chopin,Frederic,Impromptu in A-flat Major, Op. 29 72 Plot List
              71 Schubert,Franz,Piano Sonata in B-flat Major, D. 960 71 Plot List
              72 Rachmaninoff,Sergei,Piano Sonata No. 2 in B-flat Minor, Op. 36 71 Plot List
              73 Debussy,Claude,Images, Set I: Reflets dans l'eau 71 Plot List
              74 Chopin,Frederic,Twenty-Four Preludes, Op. 28 71 Plot List
              75 Prokofiev,Sergey,Piano Sonata No. 3 in A Minor, Op. 28 70 Plot List
              76 Liszt,Franz,Harmonies poétiques et religieuses, 2nd version, S. 173: 7. Funérailles (R. 14, No. 7) 70 Plot List
              77 Schubert,Franz,Impromptu in G-flat Major D. 899, No. 3 69 Plot List
              78 Bach,Johann Sebastian,Concerto in the Italian Style, BWV 971 67 Plot List
              79 Mozart,Wolfgang Amadeus,Piano Sonata in C Major, K. 330 66 Plot List
              80 Ravel,Maurice,Valses nobles et sentimentales 65 Plot List
              81 Rachmaninoff,Sergei,Prelude in G Minor, Op. 23, No. 5 65 Plot List
              82 Chopin,Frederic,Waltz in A-flat Major, Op. 42 65 Plot List
              83 Bach,Johann Sebastian,Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, BWV 565 65 Plot List
              84 Rachmaninoff,Sergei,Prelude in G Major, Op. 32, No. 5 64 Plot List
              85 Debussy,Claude,Préludes, Book II: Ondine 64 Plot List
              86 Chopin,Frederic,Étude in G-flat Major, Op. 10, No. 5 64 Plot List
              87 Chopin,Frederic,Mazurka in A Minor, Op. 17, No. 4 64 Plot List
              88 Liszt,Franz,Hungarian Rhapsody No. 6 in D-flat Major, S. 244-6 63 Plot List
              89 Mozart,Wolfgang Amadeus,Rondo in A Minor, K. 511 62 Plot List
              90 Liszt,Franz,Années de pèlerinage, 2e année, Italie, S. 161: 7. Après une lecture du Dante 62 Plot List
              91 Chopin,Frederic,Étude in G-sharp Minor, Op. 25, No. 6 62 Plot List
              92 Chopin,Frederic,Waltz in E-flat Major, Op. 18 62 Plot List
              93 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 29 in B-flat Major, Op. 106, "Hammerklavier" 62 Plot List
              94 Schumann,Robert,Piano Sonata No. 2 in G Minor, Op. 22 59 Plot List
              95 Liszt,Franz,Rhapsodie espagnole, S. 254 59 Plot List
              96 Chopin,Frederic,Étude in G-flat Major, Op. 25, No. 9 59 Plot List
              97 Chopin,Frederic,Étude in A Minor, Op. 25, No. 11, "Winter Wind" 59 Plot List
              98 Schumann,Robert,Kinderszenen, Op. 15 58 Plot List
              99 Mozart,Wolfgang Amadeus,Piano Sonata in A Minor, K. 310 57 Plot List
              100 Beethoven,Ludwig van,Piano Sonata No. 13 in E-flat Major, Op. 27, No. 1, "Quasi una fantasia" 57 Plot List

              If you want a particular composers works listed by order of performances, I can probably do that too.

              Sam

              Based on Sam's latest post: