Flow states, revisited (?)

ShiroKuro

The topic of flow states came up in Dr. Molly Gebrian’s Q&A session, so I’ve been thinking sit it a bit more lately, and then last week and this weeks, flow states has been the topic of Noa Kageyama’s email newsletter. (I don’t know if it’s possible to link to his newsletter, since it’s emailed, but if you’re not familiar with him, here’s his site: https://bulletproofmusician.com/ )

Anyway, it’s interesting to think about, so I thought I’d post about it….

One thing that’s interesting is how to describe “flow state,” or “being in the zone.” I’m sure there are other definitions, but Noa Kageyama tied a research study (of guitarists), in that study flow state was described like this:

One - the performer has to have some level of proficiency on the task at hand. Because it’s hard to get into flow states if you’re in the early stages of learning a skill and still doing lots of thinking.

Two - when the performer has reached a certain level, they have to “let go” or stop micromanaging and overthinking the minutiae of the skill.

I highlighted “micromanaging” because I’d never thought about that before, but micromanaging seems to be the best way to describe attention that would impede a flow state. And of course, if you can’t play something without micromanaging the details, you’re not ready for a flow state.

At the same time, I think awareness and feeling are key to being in a flow state, so I wonder if it’s possible to get into a flow state even with a piece that we’re not done working through…

Which brings up the question (again) of how we define flow state and how it differs from just intensely concentrating or being able to focus and keep distractions out of your mind…

I don’t have strong opinions about that last point, but I’m curious about what other people think. Especially @ranjit since I know he’s interested in this.

HeartKeys

ShiroKuro Which brings up the question (again) of how we define flow state and how it differs from just intensely concentrating or being able to focus and keep distractions out of your mind…

I find that most concepts that are similar to "flow" fall within the realm of "centered" "focused" "mindful" etc etc. and then it's up to each individual to define those terms further for themselves.

These words and phrases get used so frequently in various domains, that there's no absolute consensus about those said words.

I've heard the term "flow" used in business leadership; mindfulness techniques; time management; energy management; music; art; studying for exams; you name it. In each of those realms, it'll mean something different. Combine that with individual interpretations, it gets even more subjective.

Reminds me of the term "voicing." Even in the piano world, there's at least three definitions that come to mind: 1) adjusting the hammer/felts ("my piano needs voicing"; 2) how loud/heavy someone plays for particular notes versus ("wow, Horowitz voices that passage so well!") 3) chords, particularly in jazz ("wow those complex voicings and reharming!") etc etc.

To simplify my point-- it's very subjective. So with Dr. Gebrian, I'll consider what she said. And I'll consider what @ShiroKuro said; and what @Ithaca said; and what x said, etc.

ShiroKuro

Ithaca I was surprised when Gebrian said that you can't be in a flow state if you're practicing. It made me wonder how she defines "flow" and "practicing",

I think this gets back to what she's said about practicing... she says it in different ways but basically, that practice is for solving problems, deliberate practice has a specific goal of overcoming mistakes etc.

OTOH, flow, as Kageyama defines it, has "letting go" as a key component, and that's why I highlight micromanaging. Because if someone is trying to ensure they don't play a wrong note, that entails a degree of micromanaging.

So, reading your description, I might say you were "in the zone" in that, you were concentrating at a very, very intense level.

But is that "flow"? Well, again, it depends on how you define it, but to me, I think the idea of letting go, moving through music and experiencing the music, are key components of "flow," and those components are at odds with the goals of deliberate practice....

Again, this is how I understand these ideas, and as I'm articulating them here, I would then say:

flow, being in the zone, and concentrating are all different
flow includes freedom, playing, letting go; as such, flow is incompatible with practice.
Being in the zone and merely concentrating are not the same. Concentration might not feel good (because it requires effort), but being in the zone does feel good, because the person is able to concentrate intensely, but it doesn't feel effortful.
Concentration generally requires concerted effort to stay focused (that's not necessarily bad imo).

Again, this is how I'm thinking about it....

ShiroKuro

Ok, I googled for like a nanosecond 😅 and probably most people see "flow state" and "being in the zone" as the same thing...

That's ok, I'm good with ~~being wrong~~ having my own definition.

😄

twocats

Pallas I could sit at my station transcribing radio transmissions all day, rocking the flow state, suffused with a tremendous feeling of wellbeing. I was doing what I was trained to do

I think you could achieve flow state because you were already trained and an expert!

I took Dr. Molly's statement to mean that you can't achieve flow state while practicing stuff that isn't fully learned yet and requires your attention. You can't be in a state where your brain is on autopilot while doing focused practice 🙂

ShiroKuro

Pallas "no one can ever get into a flow state while practicing,"

What I took away from what Dr. G was saying was not "no one can get into flow while practicing," but rather, the goal of practicing is not aligned with the goal of flow.

twocats I took Dr. Molly's statement to mean that you can't achieve flow state while practicing stuff that isn't fully learned yet and requires your attention. You can't be in a state where your brain is on autopilot while doing focused practice

Right, autopilot is like the opposite of the idea of "micromanaging" in the research cited by Kageyama.

I think there is very focused concentration, and then there's flow, and these two are not the same....

But again, I am not an expert.

Also, I think @Pallas 's comments about the feeling of wellbeing are really important. I think that's probabyl a core component of flow.

So, if you have that feeling of wellbeing, but you're also actively paying attention (i.e., you are micromanaging), is it flow? I don't know.

I don't think I've ever felt that feeling while working on something I hadn't mastered.... Dunno. This is fascinating to think about though!

ShiroKuro

Yes, I'm really enjoying this discussion as well! I'll come back to your other comments when I have a little more time, but this:

Pallas Dr. K's caution against micromanaging

I like @Ithaca 's distinction between micromanaging (which I agree, is not conducive to flow) and micro-level awareness, which is different from micromanaging. I would venture to say that micro-level awareness (as a good thing) is probably actually accentuated by flow.

MRC

I think that when I'm practicing really well, I'm in flow. I view practicing as a creative process, and when it's going well I'm making new discoveries, bringing back old discoveries and maybe putting things together in new ways.

I can be in flow when perfecting pieces I know well, but also when learning new pieces.

ranjit

Ithaca One key difference for me is that I really have no sense of time passing when I'm in flow. And typically, the rest of the world/people as individual entities just do not exist.

Yes, I think this is pretty much the definition of flow. If you can get into this state while practicing a few hard measures, I can't see why it wouldn't be considered flow. I found Molly Gebrian's answer to the question of flow states to be confusing as well. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi seems to go with this definition in his book, and he's pretty much the one who discovered flow state in the psychology literature. I heard in a podcast that precious little is known about flow states in general.