Relaxation and Pain-Free Technique

Pallas

I posted a recording of the Alfred Level 1 Entertainer in the Member Recordings area and a conversation started about relaxation, so I started this thread for that, in case anyone would like to join the conversation. I've only been studying for a year, and I want to invite people who know more about this stuff than I do to weigh in on relaxation and pain-free piano technique.

Here's what I've been through in the past year:

When I first started studying with Alfred's All-In-One Level 1 method book, I overdid it and caused myself some pain. I went looking for a teacher to help me address whatever I was doing to cause myself pain, and here's what happened:

Teacher 1: Technique is simple. Adjust the bench. Curl your fingers. If you have pain, see a doctor. (One lesson.)

Teacher 2: I wasn't trained in that, but I'll watch some YouTube videos of "Russian" technique and tell you what they say to do, but you'll have to do that stuff at home because I'm not interested. (3 Lessons. We didn't click.)

Teacher 3: The only way to address pain is by limiting your daily practice to 20 minutes. (Zero lessons.)

Teacher 4: Technique? Sure. We can do Hanon if you want, but I'd rather teach you to play by ear ... (Zero lessons.)

Teacher 5: Focus on relaxing and feeling comfortable in your lesson. I'll tell you when you look tense. (My current teacher. Four lessons so far. I love her.)

My current teacher is super cool, but businesslike and doesn't want to chat away our 30 minutes. I sit. I play my pieces. She points out opportunities for improvement and tells me when I look tense. I think she will actually cover stuff like rotation in her own time, and it's not a good idea for me to rush her. She has her ways.

So I'm still very new, but I have spent some time figuring out how to relax, and how not to cause myself pain, because I love playing, and I want to practice 2-3 hours a day, and nobody would help me. But please don't take anything I say as advice because it isn't. If you want to post some advice, feel free!

So I watch a lot of videos, read a lot of books, and work on relaxation and physical technique on my own. It's not ideal! But guess what? My forearms no longer burn. My hands and wrists no longer hurt. So I'm thinking I've been doing ok bumbling along on my own until I get to a high enough level where either my teacher will start talking rotation and lateral movement and stuff, or I'll look for Teacher 6 in Boston for triple the fee.

I'm pretty sure I tried to start this conversation before both at PW and here, so maybe nobody is interested still. But if you are, please jump in and share resources, if you will.

This is The Complete Pianist by Penelope Roskell. This is a 500+ page tome, basically a piano Bible. I would not start here, but I had this book to hand, so here it is. It has every topic covering what the body should optimally do while playing (to play beautifully and stay healthy).

Pallas

Here are the books I used to educate myself from "wooden puppet with wrists like bricks" to a more relaxed presence at the keys.

What Every Pianist Needs to Know About the Body by Thomas Mark focuses on anatomy and mindful awareness of how it works. This book showed/told me how the pianist's physical "instrument" (the body) is connected, why we should care to know, and what to think about in terms of managing our body-awareness while playing, to reduce the chance of injury.

The next one is Piano Technique Demystified: Insights into Problem Solving by Neil Stannard. This is a "mind and body" "piano Bible" that tries to do everything Roskell does, but in under 150 pages. The blurb starts, "Unlike life, playing the piano is easy and doesn't hurt." Stannard defends his mantra for 132 pages.

Hanon-Faber cuts to the chase by simply giving you the least physically destructive pages of Hanon and shows you what to do with your body while playing the exercises via QR codes in the book. YouTube channel Pianist Academy has a bunch of helpful videos on how to use Hanon-Faber To reduce the tension that causes injury.

Pallas

Here's another helpful YouTube channel called PIANO LAB that talks about injury prevention. This guy had an injury and had to overhaul his technique to heal it and play without pain. I was basically doing all the wrong things when I first started learning. This channel is the quickest way to get started on the topic, but it's very TikTocky and scattered, so I would only go here if it's just too painful to start with a book.

BartK

I watched some of your recordings and I think your technique is very relaxed for your current level. You have nothing to worry about. The pain is most likely from overuse as you switch on muscle groups that are not used to work together. I had this kind of pain sometimes too and the best way to deal with it is to take a break and then work on something else.

It is commendable that you're trying to build solid foundations at the beginning but in a way I understand some of what your teachers were saying. You're not really going to injure yourself playing Alfred's. At some point when you have to play faster runs or do weird finger contortions or just play ornaments you may face some kind of brick wall - not like having pain after doing something for hours but like you just cannot physically execute the specific movement required. That's when the relaxation is really going to help.

Pallas

BartK You're not really going to injure yourself playing Alfred's.

I made those recordings after I read all these books, my friend! None of the videos are "before."

The thing is, when I told my Facebook piano group (which is packed with teachers) about the pain I was experiencing just playing Alfred, they piled on advice to get a teacher to help. Several reached out and offered lessons to address the pain I described, but I couldn't afford them. They are $125/hour teachers, and right now I'm willing to pay $40 for 30 minutes.

Over the last year, I've watched many arguments (some quite fierce) between piano people about what to teach, at what level, and how. Some share your opinion. Some don't. I don't really care who's right (to be honest, I find it really confusing!). I do care about being able to play with no pain. I had pain. I looked but didn't find help. So I learned a bunch of things on my own, and now I can play 2-3 hours a day (20 minutes at a time, with lots and lots of breaks) with no pain. I had to make a lot changes to do that - warm up, stretch, exercise, and stop tucking my thumb under a certain way - there were a lot of things I was doing wrong that I had to stop.

The last thing I want to do is suggest that anyone else read these books and think about this stuff. I do it to address pain, but also because I'm a huge nerd and I just enjoy the heck out of the research and experimenting.

Apparently, I have hypermobile joints and this causes pain if you're not extra careful! Yay.

🤣 I had pain playing Alfred. I have no pain now, after making dozens of changes. I don't know what else to say.

Pallas

Last, but very much not least, here is Dr. Marian Lee talking about techniques she learned while at Juilliard, studying under György Sándor. The thing that's most important to me is that the methods not only improve performance, but reduce the chance of injury, because they are designed to work with, not against, the natural motions of the body. Here's the video description:

Discover the 5 Basic Motions of Piano Technique from Sandor's "On Piano Playing: Motion, Sound, Expression" as taught by Dr. Marian Lee, piano professor at St. Ambrose University. #pianotechnique, #marianleepiano, #basicpianomotion, #gyorgysandor, #onpianoplaying

0:00 Introduction
1:29 General Philosophy
5:08 Free Fall
8:40 Five Fingers, Scales, & Arpeggios
18:03 Rotation
23:21 Staccato
27:15 Thrust
31:36 Putting it in Practice & Conclusion

PianoMonk

Pallas Wow, what a great video (Marian Lee). I'd like her for my teacher. LOL. Even though I couldn't play any of that music, I found the "finger alignment" portion very interesting, and will be checking that out the next time I sit down to play something.

BartK

Well, it's great that you found a way. I really do empathize as I had the same as a beginner. I was eager to practice for hours and wasn't really prepared for it but in the end I found ways to make it better (mainly by taking breaks). Good luck with your practice!

Pallas

BartK In the end, I had to force myself to take more breaks. That was certainly part of it, and I really appreciate the empathy. I got hooked very fast, and wanted to play all the time. I'm stubborn, but please keep trying to help. I'll eventually get it.

I actually still don't have an answer for how to play the very chord-heavy pieces in Alfred 1 with no pain. They are not hard pieces, but something about the way I play the chords must be wrong. I don't record those pieces because I can't practice them long enough to really learn them. I'd like to address that at some point. No doubt I'm just not playing those chords correctly!

Ithaca

Thank you so much for all this, Pallas! FWIW, I’m also hypermobile (though not so much in my fingers), and I’m sure it’s contributed to some of my postural issues. I’m also struggling particularly with chords, probably b/c I developed the bad habit of parking my left hand stretched out for long periods of time while my right was off figuring out fingerings or whatever. Now that I’m trying to be careful about returning everything to neutral quickly, it’s going a little better, but I still have a long way to go.

Pallas

Ithaca Now that I’m trying to be careful about returning everything to neutral quickly

That's probably what I need to fix! When even a simple piece has the same chords over and over, I'm probably keeping my hands spread instead of relaxing between the changes. I'll look at that! Thanks!

I swear, nothing about piano has come naturally to me. Nothing has seemed like common sense until after I hear it, then it finally clicks. I have struggled every step of the way! 😝

Stub

Ithaca I’m also struggling particularly with chords, probably b/c I developed the bad habit of parking my left hand stretched out for long periods of time while my right was off figuring out fingerings or whatever. Now that I’m trying to be careful about returning everything to neutral quickly, it’s going a little better, but I still have a long way to go.

This! I have to constantly remind myself to do so. My teacher has to constantly remind me as well, lol. I can return to neutral after a chord if I'm mindful of it, but in the heat of playing through a piece it can easily fall by the wayside. But it is worth keeping on trying. It will pay off in the long run.

My bigger issue is with chords that require some unnatural-for-me fingering on inner voices (usually octaves with inner voices). I am stubborn in that I don't like the idea of not playing exactly what is in the score, but my hands/fingers are kind of beat up already, so I need to remind myself (and my teacher says the same) that it's not worth injuring myself. A teacher is good for suggesting which note to leave out, if one must, or different fingering.

rogerch

Pallas I swear, nothing about piano has come naturally to me. Nothing has seemed like common sense until after I hear it, then it finally clicks. I have struggled every step of the way! 😝

Me too! But the fact that it’s hard makes it rewarding when things finally come together. I embrace the struggle!

iternabe

Sgisela

@Pallas - I understand your focus on pain/injury. However, my advice is to be very mindful of places where you are having issues. If you are struggling with a spot, I don’t think it’s all that helpful to practice it endlessly and think that by doing so, it will at some point come together and work. Rather, this is a road to injury and frustration. You need to sort out how you need to adjust your movements so that it works more easily. This may mean changing fingering, it may mean moving differently between notes, or other things. But if you can’t sort this out for yourself fairly quickly, then circle the spot and ask your teacher about it, show him/her your struggles, and let them guide you on how to adjust how you approach the passage. But don’t spend hours struggling through very difficult practice.

I think being proactive with your teacher about ‘problem spots,’ rather than waiting for observations of tension, will help focus both of you on technical problems that can really improve your playing.

Anyways, that’s my 2 cents…

Pallas

Sgisela I think being proactive with your teacher about ‘problem spots,’ rather than waiting for observations of tension, will help focus both of you on technical problems that can really improve your playing.

Thank you. I'll do my best. She gets very focused on what she wants to do and flustered with only having a half hour to do those things in, so maybe I'll ask her if we should make the lesson longer so I can have a bit more time for questions. I'm not having pain now, though. The pain happened a year ago, when I first started Alfred 1 without a teacher. I'll ask her about the chords, though, as soon as I have a piece that has a lot of chunky chords, because those are still giving me trouble.

Pallas

Sgisela If you are struggling with a spot, I don’t think it’s all that helpful to practice it endlessly

OH! I just realized you're concerned about overuse happening because I might be struggling to figure out problem spots and playing them over too many times in a row! Sorry, it took me time to switch gears. I totally agree. I'm doing repetitions only on a limited count: 3 repeats, then a short rest, 3 sets, then done. None of my pieces are hard enough yet where I can't figure them out in short order, but the time will come and I'll circle and ask instead of beating my head on the keys. YES. Great advice. Thank you!

Right now, my intense / repeated sections are rarely longer than 2 measures. Some of my pieces are only 2 (tricky) lines! Baby steps. I do piano things 2-3 hours a day, but with tons of breaks, and revolving through lots of different exercises and scales and pieces from the lesson, and also trying to keep pieces I have already learned in a playable state.

I have a timer and/or rep counter to tell me when to take a break!

Pallas

rogerch Me too! But the fact that it’s hard makes it rewarding when things finally come together. I embrace the struggle!

ME TOO!

Stub

Stub I have to constantly remind myself to do so. My teacher has to constantly remind me as well, lol. I can return to neutral after a chord if I'm mindful of it, but in the heat of playing through a piece it can easily fall by the wayside. But it is worth keeping on trying. It will pay off in the long run.

I think it is possible to play with tension (we all need at least some) without it leading to pain. What it will affect is tone. If one fails to return to neutral after playing a chord, chances are things are going to start sounding plonky after a bit. That momentary bit of relaxation does wonders for tone production.

Pallas, thanks for posting the books and video. I'm off to watch the video.

Pallas

Stub Pallas, thanks for posting the books and video. I'm off to watch the video.

Thank you for continuing to the conversation! I find having the input from others incredibly valuable (even though I sometimes struggle and get overwhelmed - that's a me problem!!!)

Ithaca

Stub I think it is possible to play with tension (we all need at least some) without it leading to pain. What it will affect is tone. If one fails to return to neutral after playing a chord, chances are things are going to start sounding plonky after a bit. That momentary bit of relaxation does wonders for tone production.

Quick note, and a question.

Note: W/o some tension, we'd all be lying like blobs of jelly on the floor. 😂 But too much tension, at the wrong place, for too long, causes long term damage to me. I'll elaborate more when I have the time.

Could you elaborate on tension leading to plonkiness? After 20 years mostly playing on a digital, my touch has gone to h***. (When I'm trying to play something light and delicate, it still sounds like an elephant attempting ballet. It's appalling.) I was pretty sure it was because of all the shortcomings of the digital, but now your comment has me wondering if it's also my uncontrolled tension. Tension -> plonkiness would explain why the only time my touch seems to improve at all is when I'm playing super slow and super quiet - under those circumstances I can make sure that every note is played carefully with proper alignment and no excess tension.