If you've been wanting a newer Bluthner Model 2

Ithaca

This seems like an incredibly good deal:

https://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/view?id=57001

(Summarizing: 7'10", built in 2017, sold new in 2019, one-owner. Current asking price is 1/2 what my dealer would have sold a new one for at the end of 2023 (which would already have been over 30% off SMP).

If I had the space, I'd be planning a trip out to Ohio this week.

Pallas

Ithaca I totally misread this ad and was about to write a check sight unseen. For whatever reason, my fantasy brain was willing, for a split second, to believe this piano was $15k. 🤣 No such lottery ticket. The PRICE DROP is 15k. I need a nap.

Joseph-Fleetwood

There's actually one in the London auction, 2010, that is expected to fetch around 15k GBP. So ye, maybe you could get one.

Ithaca

Following up on the London auction: That 2010 Bluthner Model 2 sold for 15k GBP:
https://pianoauctions.co.uk/lot-39-bluthner-c2010-est-12000-15000/

Accounting for the exchange rate, 24% buyers premium, and perhaps $5k(???) in trans-Atlantic shipping costs, that's ~$30k USD for a 14-year-old (ish) Model 2, which seems phenomenal.

Given the Yamaha price-increase thread, I'm beginning to wonder if it would be a feasible side-line for someone who travels regularly to Europe to act as a buyer's agent. For US buyers wanting certain makes of a newer vintage with a (say) sub $50k budget, there seems to be very little available in the used market here.

Joseph-Fleetwood

The only problem is that while there are certain gems come up from time to time, like this Blüthner Model 2, there are other pianos that have had a hard life. Some pianos in the auction have problems including splits in the bridge, or require new actions, or are just plain old. Late 20th Century Steinway Model Bs (1965 onwards) always seem to be a popular catch but let's not forget how old these pianos are now. I remember in the 80s and 90s pianos that were 60 years old were regarded as OLD and required rebuilt or replaced. As for Yamaha, You have to be careful with all makes of piano including Yamaha. So while a (for example) 1998 C3 might look stunning and mint, there could be issues with it. I've seen pianos that look mint to the naked eye that have had serious issues. It depends on how they've been kept. If the buyer's agent knows what to look for and really understands the piano then it can work out. As it happens, not many people really understand pianos all that well, even enthusiasts.

Ithaca

Joseph-Fleetwood If the buyer's agent knows what to look for and really understands the piano then it can work out.

Yes - which is why I think you'd be perfect for the role, if you were interested in it. 😃 (I know you've refused requests to go inspect pianos for other people, since you're not a tech, but what if you had a technician that you trusted in London?)

Joseph-Fleetwood

It's a nice idea, but honestly you really have to find a gem of a piano at a low price for it to work. Sometimes there are Steinways from the 80s and 90s that have had little to no use which is great, and they sell for a fraction of the cost of new. A 1998 Hamburg D sold for 47k GBP which is a very good price. But for example, a 1971 B has remained unsold and the price in dollars to America including the 24 percent auction fee will be 39k dollars. That's fine if you just want a Hamburg B in playable condition but on that piano the rollers are notching, and the back checks are worn which tells me it needs a new action (14k by the way, for a top stack, fitted and regulated). The case isn't in great condition which is fine if you don't care about it, but if you do, then you can add 5k to the price. The strings are old but still functional, but it's now at the age where it really would benefit from new strings, and probably a new pin block.... So all in all that piano ends up being much more. Plus you need to pay a percentage to the piano finder, who needs to get to London, stay in London, come back, and so that 39k Hamburg B becomes a 70K project. Well, for that you can get a recent vintage (c.20-30 year old) Model B from Steinway in excellent playing and cosmetic condition.

Ithaca

Joseph-Fleetwood honestly you really have to find a gem of a piano at a low price for it to work

Yes - which is why this would have to be only a side-job for someone who regularly travels to London. I have a friend who had to go every two weeks for 3-4 days at a time, until Brexit necessitated shifting headquarters to Luxembourg. That sort of schedule would allow for plenty of overlap with the viewing dates for the auction, I think. Going out solely in the hopes that a gem will appear at the auction isn't cost-effective, but if someone who knows what they're doing is already there, then would it take that much time to scour the auction?

Really, the problem that I'd love to address is how little-known the European makes are here in the U.S., primarily (I think) because they're comparatively so expensive. Even if people discover them, new ones mostly aren't affordable. And the used inventory is pitifully small. (In a year and a half of searching, the only used Bechstein that turned up within a 200 mile radius of me was a heavily played 116 cm vertical from the mid 1980s.) It wasn't until I resigned myself to getting something from a NYC metro area dealer that I saw a light at the end of the tunnel. And, well, you know how much I ended up paying for the A170. Although there are families around me who are laying out more than that for a new New York Steinway S because their child's teacher told them that's what they should get, I think there are more families who would be willing to dig deep into their pockets if they could get a good-condition used Bluthner A, B, or Model 6 for the something in the ballpark of the cost of a new K800. The key is that they'd have to be working with a buyer's agent with an excellent reputation.

This is a pipe dream, I'm sure, but hope dies hard. 🙂

HeartKeys

Ithaca how little-known the European makes are here in the U.S.

Yep. If one were to quiz the entire US population, especially if they were born post 1990 for example, I would guess less than 1-2% have heard of a brand other than Yamaha and Steinway. Out of those who play(ed) piano (casually), maybe 15% of them have heard of Bosendorfer or Bechstein. 5% maybe heard of Steingraeber, Bluthner, etc. 0.5% maybe heard of Fazioli, or Seiler, etc...

(Generalizing here but...) the US stands out in its short attention span and/or attraction towards marketing, thus Yamaha, Steinway are all they've heard of. Anytime I mention any other brand, almost 100% of the time they go, "hmm. okay. cool!" and are disinterested.

It's already meager to find anyone who knows anything about pianos, let alone playing one. And out of that miniscule population, it requires one to go out of the way to know about any other makers.

[yes, there are exceptions, so I'm making sweeping statements of course].

Ithaca

HeartKeys 5% maybe heard of Steingraeber, Bluthner, etc. 0.5% maybe heard of Fazioli, or Seiler, etc...

It's good to meet an optimist. 🤣

I think what troubles me even more is that so many kids seem to have a hard time listening to music that hasn't been produced with a click track and auto-tune. Like, they can't make any musical sense of it - they can't find the beat b/c it's not completely fixed, and so their brains don't know how to register it as music. My children came home yesterday complaining that even though their school has a brilliant new vocal teacher (beautiful voice, knows how to teach, and is good at classroom management, so if someone starts acting up, she just sends them out, instead of negotiating with them for 15 minutes), choir still sucks because many of the kids can't figure out whether they need to go up or down to match the pitch the teacher is humming. We're talking 9-12 year olds, not toddlers. Is it because they're primarily listening to auto-tuned pop songs with their AirPods while they tunelessly hum along, or...? The inability to tell if you're low or high relative to a reference pitch was pretty rare when I grew up, but now it seems to be quite common.

My two-fer solution: a well-tuned Bluthner in every household, with ear training for all. 😃

Pallas

Ithaca My two-fer solution: a well-tuned Bluthner in every household, with ear training for all. 😃

Where do I sign up? Will there be a payment plan?

Ithaca

Pallas 🤣🤣🤣

I was just wondering what the worldwide supply of good used Bluthners is, since the factory was back ordered for a while. And, to be practical, Haesslers, too - I’m told that they’re both built like tanks. Like, what is actually out there? Random Sunday morning thoughts; it’s no wonder I don’t get enough done. 😁

Pallas

Ithaca If dreaming about pianos is a waste of time, I'm in real trouble.

ShiroKuro

Pallas If dreaming about pianos is a waste of time, I'm in real trouble.

Same! 😃

Joseph-Fleetwood

It's not just the USA. Most people in the UK don't know Blüthner and Bösendorfer. A lot of pianists do know them because there are so many old ones kicking around, but not many people know about the new models and they judge the whole brand on a couple of examples that are 50 to 80 years old, or more - up to 140 years old - and then say they don't like them compared to a new Yamaha... Well no Sh*t! Blüthner London also did themselves zero favors by not investing in a full time concert technician who could prepare all the pianos. They used to send all the pianos through the Leveretts, when they owned that factory and the Leveretts were their employees - and so the pianos were impeccably prepared. This is actually why so many of the pianos they sold after that period were Leverett rebuilds! It got to the point around 10 years ago that the showroom didn't want to stock Leverett rebuilds anymore because they needed to promote the new product, and it couldn't compete

Ithaca

Joseph-Fleetwood It got to the point around 10 years ago that the showroom didn't want to stock Leverett rebuilds anymore because they needed to promote the new product, and it couldn't compete

You're saying that new Bluthners couldn't compete with Leverett rebuilds of old Bluthners, yes? On price alone, or were the rebuilds the (near?) equal or better than the new Bluthners?

Either way, this is fascinating, thanks. It turns out my technician is very fond of old (pre-1900?) Bluthners, but hasn't met a new(ish) one outside of a PTG conference. He's sent to conferences in Europe occasionally - if he's going to be anywhere near London soon, then I'm going to encourage him to stop by Piano Restorations LTD. I desperately want to try their Model VIII and IX rebuilds, but unfortunately there is no travel in the cards for me till next summer at earliest.

Joseph-Fleetwood

Whether it was on reason of price or quality I do not know. The rebuilds were at that time about half the price of the new pianos, which is not an insignificant difference. At that time in London, the pianos being shipped over from Leipzig had a harsh tone because they were using really hard hammers to try and modernize the sound. In the ten years previous, Blüthner still had that drawing room sound and they wanted to try to move away from that and be taken seriously as a competition instrument. That was a very difficult learning process for Blüthner because those pianos don't actually suit having that sound. Leveretts kept the sound as Colin had learned to voice them, and he was taught that technique by Rudolf Blüthner. People went to Blüthner because they wanted a drawing room sound or a chamber music sound, or if they were buying a concert grand they wanted something more romantic and warmer. They didn't want a hard tone. There's a lot to be said for sticking to what you're known for.

Blüthner pianos are designed to sing, and they really do sing, but if you put too hard a hammer on it the attack becomes too much and it goes from singing to shouting. A Yamaha voiced that way becomes dull and dead, but a Blüthner sings. You have to voice to the piano really. It's the whole build of the instrument that counts. The rim of a Blüthner is sectional, not continuous, and the idea is that it allows the body and soundboard to vibrate more freely. To change the voicing so drastically, one would really have to change the whole build. I think the Haessler has a continuous rim and it suits the more modern tone. But of course Haessler was never going to be a piano that competes at that level on concert and competition stages. It's a good piano, but it's a practice room piano really.

mivaldes

That piano is certainly beautiful. I'd love to actually hear it in person. Sad that it was owned for so short a time and the person is moving to assisted lliving. I wonder what the story is there?

Ithaca

mivaldes I thought the same - what a pity that the owner only got to play it for such a short time.

But this reminds me of when I was dithering over whether to buy my piano - I'd been feeling ill for quite some time and was worried that buying something that I wanted so badly and cost so much was the height of stupidity - almost like I was asking the universe to give me an imminently terminal diagnosis. And I try to be intelligent about high-ticket purchases. So I went to my therapist and asked, "Wouldn't buying this expensive piano be a phenomenally stupid decision, if it turns out that I'm going to be dead in 6 months?" His reply startled me: "Oh, Ithaca - if you were going to die in 6 months, I can't think of a better thing for you than to be able to play such a piano in your waning days." I sat on the idea for a day, decided he was right (modulo still being able to care for my children), and called my dealer later that week.

I hope the beautiful Model 2 gave its owner great joy in the time they had together.

Pallas

Ithaca "...if you were going to die in 6 months, I can't think of a better thing than for you than to be able to play such a piano in your waning days."

This person gets angel wings. Furthermore, I hope anyone who can afford the piano of their dreams, buys the piano. Not everyone can afford a dream instrument, and that's sad. But there is no virtue in denying yourself if you have the $$$. I'm in therapy for this! ☺️

When it comes time for me to buy a grand piano, I hope you will help me get over the reflexive self-denial. Remind me that people who can afford to treat themselves and don't, don't get virtue points!

I started out a single mom making $10/hour, and 30 years later, I have the resources to buy almost any piano, but I still clip coupons, and it'll be a big leap of faith to buy the big grand piano when I've decided it's time.

I'm glad you decided to go for it, and I hope you are and continue to be in good health.

Ithaca

Pallas When it comes time for me to buy a grand piano, I hope you will help me get over the reflexive self-denial. Remind me that people who can afford to treat themselves and don't, don't get virtue points!

Definitely, and with pleasure!

My therapist often tells me that for most of his patients he has to try to rein in their spending, but for me it's the exact opposite, and that neither extreme is healthy. I've gotten into this weird state where if I'm in a large city, $5 is the minimum unit size (someone took your bag from you and rolled it 10 feet, even when you didn't want them to? Give them $5), but when I'm home I'll find myself dithering over whether to put another nickel into the parking meter for 3 more minutes of time. The answer is to always put in the extra nickel - it's not worth the $75 fine if I'm over time, and I don't move as fast as I used to - but sometimes my brain gets very unhappy about the likely waste of....$0.05. Old habits die hard, I guess.