bassclef One thing that I disliked about Alfred were the arrangements with those honking G7 and D7 chords that found their way into so many of the early tunes.

😂 Same! They were dissonant, awkward honks, and sounded misplaced to me. After tolerating them for what I considered long enough, I started saying "honk honk" while playing those staccato notes. Switched it up to sharpening the Fs to give it the authentic honk it so clearly aspired to. I'm sure this is frowned upon in some circles, but finally resorted to just X-ing them off the score. That was the ticket. Overall Alfred's was okay; preferred Faber I think.

      Sophia The only exception, afaik, are the John Thompson primer and the grade books. Before I went with Alfred, I went through JT grade one and I absolutely adored every single piece. The only reason why I went with Alfred was because for self study, JT moves very fast indeed plus there are no explanations. It assumes that a teacher will guide the student through the book.

      I did the reverse- starting with Alfred's/Faber, then going to the grade books. I'm just starting the first in the series, but definitely supplementing a lot from the other books he recommends, and also getting technique examples from videos. I love this approach and am glad to have started over. I wasn't following Alfred or Faber on some pretty basic stuff which I am now grasping for the first time. While I think both Alfred's and Faber are great, the way I learn is much more in tune with JT, if that makes sense,.

        Yes, I love JT's approach as well. I honestly don't think you can go wrong with either of the three methods, so I would indeed encourage anyone to start with the one they jive with (or if they have a teacher, to go along with them) 🙂

          bassclef I also ordered the Faber sight reading books 1 and 2 which should arrive tomorrow. I think they may help reenforce and speed up my recognition of the notes. Although I read the bass clef well from playing bass, adding the treble clef and concentrating on it has not only introduced occasional hesitation on the treble clef, but bass as well occasionally.

          How are you getting on with these books - are they useful to help with sight reading? Also, are the pieces quite enjoyable or is it just a case of tolerating them as exercises to improve your sight reading? They say that playing a variety of easy pieces is good for sight reading and I'm considering buying some books like the ones you mentioned.

          "Don't let's ask for the moon, we have the stars." (Final line from Now,Voyager, 1942)

              Sophia I honestly don't think you can go wrong with either of the three methods

              Actually, I went very wrong with Alfred's, because there was so little written about technique. Alfred's without a teacher, and no YT videos either (because I had no clue they even existed), can make you develop very bad technique.

              *
              ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...

                Indeed, the reverse is true too... I don't think any method is right when the student is not doing it right or "getting it" 😄 (for whatever reason)

                AutumnDay Same! They were dissonant, awkward honks, and sounded misplaced to me.

                I was wondering if it was just me. I've only come across one measure in the Faber book that had a similar dissonant sound that seemed out of place to my ear. I just played the root note instead of the chord as written.

                  Nightowl How are you getting on with these books - are they useful to help with sight reading? Also, are the pieces quite enjoyable or is it just a case of tolerating them as exercises to improve your sight reading? They say that playing a variety of easy pieces is good for sight reading and I'm considering buying some books like the ones you mentioned.

                  I only got to page 12 of the first sightreading book and then put it down for the time being. That portion covered all treble clef notes that had been covered in the method book to the point I was at. I'll pick it back up after I get accustomed to the additional notes on that staff.

                  Early sightreading material is pretty dry. But in small doses each day is fine. I absolutely agree that playing a large variety of level appropriate material is beneficial. So along with the method and sightreading, I'm also playing out of the 42 Famous Classics (easy) book that I bought.

                  It's getting slower for me to progress in the Faber method now at roughly half way, so I'm jumping around between books and songs, working on a couple songs from each at any given time.

                      bassclef

                      Don't rush your lessons but don't overwhelm yourself with all that other stuff either. That's the fast lane on the highway to burnout and disillusionment.

                          Player1

                          Yeah, I'm taking the journey approach, and have whittled down some of the other stuff I was doing. I've burned out in the past on bass, and am trying to be careful for the signs of it. I tend to get too ambitious, so awareness is needed.

                            4 months later

                            hebele kindly informed me about this thread, so I may post in here on occasion as I work my way through book 1.

                            navindra Have you seen the Faber YouTube channel?

                            Thank you for sharing this. Now I have another channel to follow. I just watched up through unit 3. The 3-minute Study in 2nds technique in unit 3 was interesting. It involved small circular wrist motions. Playing the notes in the exercise with my right hand seemed fairly natural and easy to incorporate the circular motion. But my left hand was a different story. I don't think I'd call it tension, but more like stiff and awkward. After continuing to run through the exercises for a bit with my left hand, my wrist did eventually loosen up. Something else for me to work on!

                                5 days later

                                • Kaydia

                                • Post #50
                                • Edited

                                I've finished with Procession. I had also gone back to work some more on Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. And then I watched the videos for these pieces on the Faber website. It's a bit annoying to find out the performances didn't match what I see on the page.

                                For example, in Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, instead of using the phrase markings in the book, they made each section between the rests a phrase.

                                And for Procession, again instead of using the phrase markings in the book, they used 1 phrase for each line.

                                And, of course, they both sounded so much better that way. The teacher from the Let's Play Piano Method videos had suggested the same phrasing that the Faber performer used. I think I'm going to stick to his suggestions from now on. I guess I don't understand why the phrasing was done the way it was for those pieces in the book. It makes a huge difference in the way they sound.

                                Anyway, I've got a few technique and theory pages to work on, and then on to the Theme from the "Surprise" Symphony.

                                  Kaydia I don't understand why the phrasing was done the way it was for those pieces in the book. It makes a huge difference in the way they sound.

                                  The book "teaches" concepts that the student is capable of understanding at the time. As the student learns more, the concepts change or become more advanced.

                                  For instance; in your book the rests are marked with the word rest! only because the book is teaching recognition of the symbol to rest and the marks will go away in short order because the author assumes you learned what the symbol means and don't need it explained again and again and again forever. This will change/become more advanced as you learn there are different symbols for "rest" and what those symbols mean in their various iterations. But for now, you learned what a "rest" is. (By the way, when a pianist "rests" they lift and float that resting hand to give it something to do instead of freezing it to hover over the keyboard (like I do) because freezing it in place adds tension. Which is a bad thing.)

                                  Phrasing is a different animal entirely. It is the melody by which the music flows. Much like speaking, music has small pauses and inflections placed strategically so that it's not a run-on monotone of words. Part of learning how to spot the melody is learning where phrases begin and end. In your music, the rest! is an aid but you should be looking at the music too. Notice that there's a half-note immediately preceding the marking. The music holds on that note to draw it out and emphasize that point. Then it returns to the pattern which culminates in yet another half-note emphasis. These are the phrases (or "sentences") in the music.

                                  To help you spot this, try clapping the notes for the correct duration of the notes. (Claapp, claapp | clap-clap-clap | clap-clap claapp <-- pay attention to the arched lines in the score because they "link" the notes together like I used hyphens here.) You'll see where the phrases, as well as the small pauses and inflection/emphasis points are, and you'll learn to start to recognize the melody based on the sheet/notes rather than having to hear it first.

                                  You should actually clap to start but eventually you'll begin to do it in your head automatically as you look over the sheet music as part of preparing to play it.

                                      Re: "linking notes"

                                      In Procession, the whole notes aren't "linked" (called a slur) they're "tied." Hold the note for the duration of the tie (the length of time of the whole note and the following tied note)

                                      If a quarter note is a clap. And a half note is a claapp. And a whole note is a claaappp. Then a pair of tied whole notes would be a claaa------ppp. Held for 2 "claaappp" periods of time. In Procession the LH holds the G for the entire line of 4 measures because of the tie which sustains the note.

                                      Slurs mean that there's no pause between the individual notes but they are played as individual notes rather than one note being held longer than it's note value.

                                      You can google the difference between slurs and ties faster and easier than can be explained here.

                                        Player1 By the way, when a pianist "rests" they lift and float that resting hand to give it something to do instead of freezing it to hover over the keyboard (like I do) because freezing it in place adds tension. Which is a bad thing.

                                        Oh, I didn't know this. I'm all for trying to avoid tension so I'll give this a try.

                                        Player1 Notice that there's a half-note immediately preceding the marking. The music holds on that note to draw it out and emphasize that point. Then it returns to the pattern which culminates in yet another half-note emphasis. These are the phrases (or "sentences") in the music.

                                        I had not noticed that the quarter notes ending with a half note made up the phrase. I see what you're saying, that makes sense to me.

                                        Player1 To help you spot this, try clapping the notes for the correct duration of the notes. (Claapp, claapp, clap-clap-clap, clap-clap claapp <-- pay attention to the arched lines in the score because they "link" the notes together like I used hyphens here.) You'll see where the phrases, as well as the small pauses and inflection/emphasis points are, and you'll learn to start to recognize the melody based on the sheet/notes rather than having to hear it first.

                                        I tried the clapping, but I don't hear a phrase from doing that. I still don't understand the arched lines in the score if each group of 6 notes is played as 1 phrase. To me, the arched lines break it into 2 separate phrases.

                                        Player1 In Procession, the whole notes aren't "linked" (called a slur) they're "tied." Hold the note for the duration of the tie (the length of time of the whole note and the following tied note)

                                        Sorry, I may not have explained well. I wasn't referring to the tied notes. Those I understand. I was referring to the right-hand melody. It's similar to the previous piece where there's a section of notes with an arched line, but apparently the whole line (ie: measures 9-12) is meant to be played as a single phrase. So again I'm confused as to why there's an arch over only some of the notes on that line.

                                        Thanks for helping out. It's very much appreciated.

                                                  Kaydia

                                                  The arched line between DIFFERENT notes is called a "slur." It's there to tell you to play the notes together as fluidly as possible while keeping them separate and distinct. The arched line between the SAME note is a tie. It tells you to hold the ONE note for the duration of all the notes tied together. Tie a whole note for two measures and you hold that one note for an 8 count. (In standard 4/4 time.)

                                                  Phrases are the combination of notes, slurs, ties, and everything else used to form a musical sentence. All the musical notation on the page is just punctuation. They're like commas, hyphens, semi-colons, and all that jazz. Phrases end in periods where the musical line stops and then a new line begins. Unfortunately for us, the use of periods in music is more like a suggestion than a hard fact.

                                                  However, an exercise;

                                                  Doe, a deer.
                                                  A fe male deer.

                                                  Becomes;

                                                  Do, do-re
                                                  re, do, do, re

                                                  BUT, on the page those notes look like:

                                                  ~ A ~ | A-B ~ | B-A A B | ~ B ~| B A-A-|-A A-B

                                                  Translated into sounds and including the musical notation you're familiar with (and using a hyphen to indicate a slur):

                                                  rest! do rest! | do re rest! | re-do do re | rest! re rest! | re do-do-|-do do-re

                                                  Words:

                                                  Do | a-deer | A-fe male deer | Re | A drop-of-|-gold en-sun

                                                  You can clap it or sing it like it's written and find the phrases. When you do you'll find the melody.

                                                      Kaydia I think there is no indication of phrases in your examples. The slurs only indicate which notes should be played legato (and the ties - which notes should be held). Then when you play the piece you are free to shape the phrases as you think is suitable, but there is no marking for it in the text.
                                                      Please take what I say with a grain of salt, I'm a only a beginner too and may be wrong.

                                                          My understanding from "Let's Play Piano Method" was also that the book doesn't state phrases explicitly. Most of time, he discusses whether that is just a slur or also a phrase. And gives his opinion. I first try to play a piece without listening anything then go check the channel and Faber audio/videos. And hope for the best 🙂

                                                          Another thing I've realised (after checking out John Thompson method book), lyrics usually make phrases really obvious. And I'm always following the score when I read the words. Which was surprising to me.

                                                            Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

                                                            Player1 Phrases are the combination of notes, slurs, ties, and everything else used to form a musical sentence. All the musical notation on the page is just punctuation. They're like commas, hyphens, semi-colons, and all that jazz. Phrases end in periods where the musical line stops and then a new line begins. Unfortunately for us, the use of periods in music is more like a suggestion than a hard fact.

                                                            Oh. I was thinking a slur was treated like a phrase.

                                                            In the video for E.K.N, the teacher said: "Look at the last measure of the 1st line there on page 47. It's here (plays the slur in M12), but then in the next line there's a different slur, so they want a little separation (hold up thumb and pointer finger spread a little apart, then plays M12 and M13 with slight space between). I disagree with that. I'd slur all of those together."

                                                            So, in the E.K.N piece, how would it sound different if there were no slurs indicated?

                                                            Gooseberry I think there is no indication of phrases in your examples. The slurs only indicate which notes should be played legato (and the ties - which notes should be held). Then when you play the piece you are free to shape the phrases as you think is suitable, but there is no marking for it in the text.

                                                            I feel I am getting the idea of how to phrase a (simple) piece. Well, at least until I came across these 2 pieces. I think I'm getting hung up on what is the purpose of the slur lines if all those notes are going to be connected as a phrase.

                                                            hebele My understanding from "Let's Play Piano Method" was also that the book doesn't state phrases explicitly. Most of time, he discusses whether that is just a slur or also a phrase. And gives his opinion. I first try to play a piece without listening anything then go check the channel and Faber audio/videos. And hope for the best

                                                            I do like the guys opinions on phrasings, and how the phrasing is a matter of interpretation. I do first try to play a piece before I listen to anything. But I'm starting to think I might start listening to a recording after I get it roughed in, before I spend too much time on it playing it in a way that doesn't sound right/good.

                                                                    Kaydia So, in the E.K.N piece, how would it sound different if there were no slurs indicated?

                                                                    Then you would play the whole piece non-legato (detached). I find it more difficult to make phrases when playing non-legato, but it can (and should) be done!

                                                                    Kaydia I feel I am getting the idea of how to phrase a (simple) piece. Well, at least until I came across these 2 pieces. I think I'm getting hung up on what is the purpose of the slur lines if all those notes are going to be connected as a phrase.

                                                                    It sounds as if you still confuse slurs lines - indicating that you should play legato and not non-legato - with phrases. I have checked the Alfred's book. I see that they are to blame as the ones who gave you this idea.

                                                                    Also, to add to this confusion, a lot of the pieces in the first Alfred's book don't have slurs, even though most students will play them as if they have slurs.

                                                                    However, a phrase can be fully non-legato. Or, a slur can stop in the middle of a phrase.

                                                                    Player1's example is very good.

                                                                    Do | a-deer | A-fe male deer | Re | A drop-of-|-gold en-sun

                                                                    Here is another example. You could say that the piece is divided into four phrases that then are repeated. The first phrase does not end when the slur ends, but when the three non-legato notes (chords) end.
                                                                    Thus, the first phrase is measure 1 and 2. The notes in measure 1 are played legato, the notes in measures 2 non-legato (detached).

                                                                    PS I see now that they very inconsistently put the slur over the last three similar chords. 🙄

                                                                    *
                                                                    ... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...